New MBT(Leo 2, M1A2, or Challenger 2), new light tank (Stingray), or new DFSV (M8 or MGS)?

[George Wallace]

Gents. I cut out and saved Gen Hillier‘s half page letter to the Ottawa Citizen and once again I feel betrayed by him. He has proven that he no longer wears the Black Beret in my eyes. Too many flaws with his rational. At the looks of it the MGS will not fit into a Herc fully prepared for combat. How many Hercs would be required to move a Sqn or even a Troop of these vehs? If you have to spend days of prep time at both ends of the flight, what is the sense? If on the other hand a flight of Hercs arrived at a remote airfield and could unload a Sqn of MGS blazing away and killing the enemy dead, then I would hold that as a relevant arguement. No. Nowhere in Armour Doctrine has it ever been stated that Armour is to be Air Portable, Air Transportable or Air Dropable. Armour usually arrives by Sea and goes into a Battle Zone fighting. Anyone, including Gen Hillier, who wants to take DS1 or DS2 as an example of modern battle is nuts and looking for a disasterous fall in the future.
When I listen to people say that the ‘tank‘ is a "Cold War Relic" and obsolete, I can only shake my head at their ignorance (Even if it is a Past CO, and there are even worse working for him, all past CO‘s--our Somolia ‘hero‘ who thinks ISTAR is the greatest thing since sliced bread comes to mind). So we are replacing our Leopards with the MGS. Well that is a step backwards in my opinion. The MGS is an Assault Gun/Tank Destroyer and that idea is a relic from WW II.
We have now destroyed the Combat Team. No longer do we have a tank to close with and destroy the enemy and fight alongside the attacking Infantry giving them mutual support. IMHO this is the destruction of the Army.

GW

 

[tmbluesbflat]

sounds like the officer or one of his relatives, may be a share holder in the company selling the iron. He would not be the first!

 

[Garry]

George,

Back when you and I were Troopers drooling over the Centurions, the Armoured Corps managed to convince the Government that the Cent‘s were dead, and that we truly needed new tanks. The problem was brought to Trudeau, and his response was "disband the Armoured Corps".

Not the response we expected.

After much discussion, it was decided to mothball the Cents, buy enough Leo‘s to outfit Germany (and maintain our NATO commitment) and some for the school. The rest of the Corps would be given "Tank Trainers" so as to maintain their skills for the few years it would take to get the $$ for new tanks.

IIRC we went from 500 Cent‘s to 120 leo‘s and a bunch of Cougars.

Well, this is screw the Armoured Corps, round two. Thing is, is what are we gonna do about it? I have no idea about the Stryker- never seen one, will never crew one- and agree that it does NOT sound like a tank..and NOTHING projects power like a tank. However, as long as we do NOT employ it like a tank, then who cares?

The all arms/capable army is gone. We may as well find something to do that lends itself to our skills.

Is this rolling over? maybe. If we deny the truth, certainly.

We fulfill the role that Canadians set for us. That apparently does not include all out war.

Should our generals resign in protest? maybe. Years ago, that action would have given the Government a public slap in the face. I suggest that option now would be a futile gesture.

Tough times, my friend- but good folk.

Cheers-Garry

 

[George Wallace]

Good Morning.

On Parade this morning we got the news from our OC of the suicide bomber taking out an Iltis this morning in Kabul. This is where I feel betrayed by the Upper Echelons laying down and playing dead for their civilian masters. They are not fighting hard enought for the proper equipment for the job that we have to do.

When we first took on the role of Peacekeepers in the ‘60s we used Ferrets to patrol in dangerous zones. Our "Kinder - Gentler Army" attitude is what killed our troops. I am sure that a suicide bomber would have had little effect against an armoured car like a Ferret (ie. the crew would have been shaken up, but not seriously injured). We are letting our troops down. It has to stop.

GW

 

[Franko]

Agreed

 

[Bzzliteyr]

Funny thing is, there are still countries out there using the ferrets, the Chinook, the 5/4 ton truck and the Kiowa amongst other things. Tell me that makes sense to you?? Frustration.

Bzz

 

[Franko]

The RCD have a Ferret and it drives like a dream...right George?

Regards

 

[George Wallace]

Originally posted by Franko:
[qb] The RCD have a Ferret and it drives like a dream...right George?

Regards [/qb]

Well....you could get rid of that gas tank from your boat

 

[Franko]

Actually George, the tank belonged to SSM Whelan(ret)...you haven‘t seen it lately have you? I put in the gas tank, installed the radios etc. It‘s pretty much done with the exception of the wiring harness. Still missing some relays and juctions.

At least we have it running and drivable/ stoppable.

Regards

 

[Bzzliteyr]

Are you referring to CWO Whelan that is here at the school? He is not retired..

 

[Franko]

Nope, his brother Rick. He just retired.

Regards

 

[Bzzliteyr]

Seen. I am not "current" on the RCD nominal role.. hehe

 

[Franko]

and you never will be :evil:

Regards

 

[Bzzliteyr]

That‘s right.. I am a true regimental soldier and have no plans of rebadging. The only other badge I ever want to wear (again) is the RCAC badge. That may or may not happen, but dreams never hurt anyone (except the ones about you in spandex Franko)..

Bzz

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Originally posted by Recce41:
[qb] The only LAV we have is the LAVIII. The rest are US/Aussie. Canada only builds them. The 105 is just as good as a 120. [/qb]

It is unlikely that the 105 M68A1 on the MGS will be as good as the 120mm. the Sabot round will certainly be less although the HEAT round will be fairly close. A 105mm HESH would be the most useful round for this, as the MV are fairly low.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Originally posted by Recce41:
[qb] Strat
The new 105s are just as good as the 120MM. The new 105s have a high energy level. I saw a flic about the 105, for the MGS. The only problem is the veh its on. The Brits are also working on a new 105.
Fellas, the 25MM cannot take out T72s. US BS.
Strath, e mail me. I‘m a old Hussar and RCD. [/qb]

the gun from the MGS is from the US M60 and is almost exactly the same as the Leo‘s 105.

they are talking about the use of a smooth bore 105 from Rheinmatal (spelling?) but have no plans to buy it.
From the article I read here, it would seem that the designers feel they have overcome the recoil problem.....care to buy a bridge?

 

[George Wallace]

Originally posted by S_Baker:
[qb] I am not an expert on Armored vehicles (yet )
but last year I met one of the chief designers of the United Defense AGS.

The AGS is suppose to give the US 18th ABN Corps some armored defensive capability (similar to the M-551 Sheridan) other than man portable systems. IMO, the new thunderbolt (AGS) concept with 120mmm and autoloader meets most of the objectives of an AGS. The new future combat systems (FCS) vehicles are a step in the right direction, IMO, there is still a need for a MBT! [/qb]

Couldn‘t agree with you more.

This is a vehcile that comes out of WW II mentality/philosophy of the Tank Destroyer or Assault Gun. It plays a completely different role on the battlefield than a tank. It stands off and fires onto a target, or lays in ambush for a target. It does not necessarily require to carry many rounds. A tank on the other hand ‘closes with and destroys the enemy‘ in cooperation with Infantry. For Canadian Generals and Politicians to think of replacing tanks with this vehicle is nonscience. It is a vehicle that would supliment the tanks in a Combat Team, not replace them.

GW

 

[Franko]

How true George....

Too bad the monkeys in Ottawa don‘t see it that way.

Regards

 

[George Wallace]

Just got a flight date today. Am on the Big Silver Bird Monday. Probably see you late Tuesday evening or Wednesday. Don‘t know what Tpt is like, but am leaving Pet in PM (1600) weather permitting of course.

GW

 

[Franko]

It‘s anywhere from 24 to 36 hours travel time. It also depends on the road conditions, mountains, and if your in a Hungarian bus or one of ours. If it‘s the Hungarians...I‘m suggesting you take the rear seats at the very back...the rest are plywood covered in 1/8 inch of foam

Leaving on Monday eh? See you on Wednesday...