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New Ontario Government 2018

LittleBlackDevil

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Underway said:
So what is great leadership to you. He's shown compassion, not tried to score political points, followed the medical/scientific advice and worked with former political "enemies (read Federal Liberals)" to get the job done.  At every turn, he's tried to do the right thing.  So... is it perhaps your own political leanings and previous opinions are getting in the way.  By any objective measure, he's doing amazing.  And let me say... I was NOT a fan before this.

Great leadership would include all of the above BUT would also include considering a variety of opinions and balancing multiple competing interests rather than just basically handing the reins of leadership over to the medical professionals.

I don't take issue with medical professionals wanting a lockdown because, they are focusing on their field as they should. And in a vacuum, without other competing interests to consider, absolutely you lock it all down. But, the medical ramifications of those infected with COVID-19 is only one piece of the puzzle. It seems like no one has considered the long term economic impact and the deaths that will result from the lockdown.

It seems to me that locking everything down was in fact the easy, politically expedient one, because no one was going to criticize him for doing that. I think placed like Sweden are the ones who actually made a tough decision because they risk a higher death toll now, to avoid a much much worse death toll down the road. I believe we are in the "calm before the storm" and we are only just starting to see the tip of the iceberg of the lockdown consequences that are coming and they'll be bad.

I'm impressed (not intended to be sarcastic, that's a genuine compliment).  Some consistency in an opinion.  One of the least talked about issues with left/right is their inconsistent belief systems (pro-life but also pro-death penalty?  What?  Generally soft on law and order but in favour of lockdown of the economy?  Huh? and vice versa).
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I don't see an inconsistency between being pro-capital punishment and pro-life at the same time, but I'm not going to get into that because it's off topic.

That said, I'm not necessarily ideologically opposed to a lockdown per se ... my concern has always been more along the lines that the cure is worse than the disease.
 

YZT580

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damned if you do, damned if you don't.  I'm old enough to remember both the Hong Kong and the Asian Flu pandemics.  Both had death tolls exceeding this one (so far) and that was with a much smaller population base.  We lived or died and went on with life.  There was no lockdown although a number of businesses had to reduce shifts and go slow because of staff shortages.  People developed immunity.  With this thing, we still may end up with it but it spreads it out over a much longer period of time at a horrendous cost.  But what politician is going to go against the medical experts even though they have no idea when or whether there will be an improvement.  These experts only have computer simulations to go by and they haven't the foggiest whether the data going in is the right data or not.  As proof, consider the death counts that were originally forecast with the best case scenario which is why the lock down.  Nowhere have we even come close to approaching the estimates except in seniors homes and that is a totally distorted picture.  Come election though and the inevitable I told you so's would sound the death knell for the leader if they contradicted the experts.   
 

Brad Sallows

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>But what politician is going to go against the medical experts even though they have no idea when or whether there will be an improvement.

The smart ones are also listening to their economic and fiscal experts, and seeking the advice of those who have multidisciplinary expertise in public health and economics.

>These experts only have computer simulations to go by and they haven't the foggiest whether the data going in is the right data or not.

The accuracy of the data can be refined by observation, but it hardly matters; there is no reason to believe the models (the process by which the inputs become outputs) are accurate.  Models of complex phenomena are just educated guesswork with a lot of coarse assumptions and approximations.
 

BeyondTheNow

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Perhaps location/geography is playing a role in perceptions of what is at the forefront of the Premier’s focal points, but it’s appeared quite clear to me via several news conferences and articles that the economy is of extremely high concern. Not once have I ever gotten the impression that Ford downplayed and/or wasn’t concerned about the necessity of maintaining the status quo as much as possible, as evidenced by how many businesses remained operating practically as normal when the first round of closures was announced. It wasn’t until the extent to which cases were spreading (because people weren’t adhering to the social distancing protocols) and the healthcare system in this province was clearly being affected that it was decided the closures needed to be more inclusive.

Since then, he has often discussed the state of the economy and expressed his desire to initiate a plan to get things going again, but has also explained that it will need to be methodical and well-executed in order to prevent another serious bout of cases within a short time frame and in large numbers.

Of course he needs to take into account facts and figures coming from the health-care professionals immediately surrounding him (and others). He is not educated in medicine and he’s not pretending to be. He has struck a fair and transparent balance between what he feels is best for the province from the business aspect, as well as the healthcare aspect. What else do we want here?


Jeezuss, if someone would’ve told me a year ago I’d be defending Ford...

 

LittleBlackDevil

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YZT580 said:
damned if you do, damned if you don't.  I'm old enough to remember both the Hong Kong and the Asian Flu pandemics.  Both had death tolls exceeding this one (so far) and that was with a much smaller population base.  We lived or died and went on with life.  There was no lockdown although a number of businesses had to reduce shifts and go slow because of staff shortages.  People developed immunity.  With this thing, we still may end up with it but it spreads it out over a much longer period of time at a horrendous cost.

Time will tell, but I anticipate the death toll from those epidemics will be far less because they didn't take away people's jobs, ruin the supply chain, etc. during those epidemics whereas this has been done today. All while people are not developing immunity because they're "sheltering in place". It's going to be ugly hence why I can't get on board the "Ford is a great leader" bandwagon.

YZT580 said:
But what politician is going to go against the medical experts even though they have no idea when or whether there will be an improvement.

A politician who is a good leader would listen to a variety of experts and balance all the competing interests to come up with a plan that mitigates the overall harm rather than focussing just on one area which is what has been done. In my view, Ford took the "easy way out" and just did what everyone else was doing so he wouldn't be criticized.

In my view, the real leaders are people like those in Sweden who made the tough decision to keep things open and eat the initial media outrage. Now that they've weathered that storm they are starting to look like geniuses because their medical system hasn't "collapsed", their economy isn't in tatters, they don't have people dying because of skipped surgeries or unemployment-induced-suiced, and they are developing immunity.

The smart ones are also listening to their economic and fiscal experts, and seeking the advice of those who have multidisciplinary expertise in public health and economics

YZT580 said:
These experts only have computer simulations to go by and they haven't the foggiest whether the data going in is the right data or not. 

Which is all the more reason why you don't completely annihilate the economy and deny people the basic right to earn a living. You don't really need computer projections to know self-destructing the economy will be bad. So why hit that detonator switch when you have no clue whether the data supporting that move is right?

YZT580 said:
Come election though and the inevitable I told you so's would sound the death knell for the leader if they contradicted the experts. 

On the contrary, if Ford had the intestinal fortitude to go with a Sweden-type approach, by the time the election rolled around he'd be looking like the guy who saved Ontario while everyone else suicided their provinces, in my view.
 

LittleBlackDevil

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BeyondTheNow said:
Perhaps location/geography is playing a role in perceptions of what is at the forefront of the Premier’s focal points, but it’s appeared quite clear to me via several news conferences and articles that the economy is of extremely high concern.[./quote]

Actions speak louder than words -- this is what fuels my perception. Sure, Ford has SAID that he has high concerns about the economy and that "no one wants to open the economy up more than me" but what his ACTIONS are has been to shut everything down and ruin the economy. He didn't hesitate at all to take away millions of Ontarians' livelihood away from them and prohibit them from the basic human right of earning a living. We're only seeing the very tip of the iceberg here of the economic ramifications, but it's going to get a lot worse, I'm quite sure.

Not sure whether location/geography is playing a role necessarily ... I don't know, I live in Ontario myself, although I originate from Manitoba. Not sure if that's part of it. Certainly my political, social, and religious views inform my perception to a degree. I don't know about your situation, but I find that those who are most in support of the lockdown are those who have continued to receive their paycheque. While my business hasn't been completely destroyed, I've taken about a 60% drop in income thus far so no doubt that colours my perception somewhat. 

BeyondTheNow said:
Of course he needs to take into account facts and figures coming from the health-care professionals immediately surrounding him (and others). He is not educated in medicine and he’s not pretending to be. He has struck a fair and transparent balance between what he feels is best for the province from the business aspect, as well as the healthcare aspect. What else do we want here?

I do not say that he should totally ignore the facts and figures from health-care professionals, but he should not have such tunnel vision in this regard. I can't say it better than Brad Sallows did: "The smart ones are also listening to their economic and fiscal experts, and seeking the advice of those who have multidisciplinary expertise in public health and economics." THAT'S what I want here.
 

Bruce Monkhouse

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LittleBlackDevil said:
Which is all the more reason why you don't completely annihilate the economy and deny people the basic right to earn a living. You don't really need computer projections to know self-destructing the economy will be bad. So why hit that detonator switch when you have no clue whether the data supporting that move is right?

Lots of jobs, I think every senior/group/ shelter home in Ontario is hiring right now.
 

LittleBlackDevil

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Bruce Monkhouse said:
Lots of jobs, I think every senior/group/ shelter home in Ontario is hiring right now.

They are not doing a good job of advertising this or of recruiting. That said it's something worth looking into.
 

BeyondTheNow

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It’s interesting noting the uptick in different types of support for Ford during the last weeks.

I find it particularly and curiously enjoyable (referencing myself as well here) when others really, reeeally don’t want to admit that he’s been doing an overall good job (mainly because many still recall previous actions and initiatives that keep them wary—and with justifiable reason), but through gritted teeth and clenched fists manage to utter a (sometimes back-handed) compliment—or two—in one area or another.

So this article gave me a good chuckle. Obviously written with an intended tone and effect, but humorous. There’s some tongue-in-cheek, and some eye-rollers through-out, but it had some laughs for those who can relate to how the writer framed this particular piece. ‘Not meant to illicit any serious debating of viewpoints or ideologies, just a bit of a laugh.


Ontario Premier Doug Ford has flipped my world

He’s not the only politician to have achieved this during the pandemic but he’s the one whose energy and education policies offend me just as much now as they did when he was first elected.

On the other hand, he has a dreadful, beautiful cheesecake recipe his late mother got from her sister Wendy, he learned to make it when he was 10, and the result has clogged my heart with sweet, sweet love.

He sent out a video of himself making the cheesecake in the kitchen of his mom’s house and I cannot stop watching the thing. It’s so Ontario it’s practically the Canadian Shield in a 9-inch Pyrex dish.

First of all, Adorable Doug had all his ingredients lined up and ready for action, which is what all terrible cooks do — I am one — because we have a tendency to panic. “My god, we’re out of cream of tartar?” “The eggs aren’t room temperature, does that matter?” We don’t pre-heat the oven because we never think we’ll actually get there.

But Doug was at his best in blue latex gloves, very au courant, and a black T-shirt declaring “We’re all in this together.” I don’t think we are, I don’t wear clothes with writing on them, I don’t like folksy, and I want that shirt.

Ford assembled his packages: graham cracker crumbs, Philadelphia cream cheese, Redpath icing sugar, Lactantia milk and butter, Dream Whip topping and two cans of cherry filling. I disagree with the Dream Whip, made as it is of sugar, palm oil, modified milk, corn syrup and chemicals, much preferring 35 per cent cream with icing sugar and almond flavour.

Ford Nation would call me elitist but I’m ordering Dream Whip on Instacart as I write this. This is a tween recipe, basically a jigsaw puzzle with seven pieces, and it takes me back to the frighteningly awful recipes of my childhood, Mad Men dishes with three-layer Jello salads and wooden salad bowls filled with iceberg lettuce and Heinz dressing.

Ford has a cool hand mixer, which we were never allowed because frivolous, because splattery. We had a huge, heavy Kenwood Chef. Oh, I have since run the gamut of fragile Brauns and ill-designed KitchenAids, and still I dream of Premier Doug’s mixer.

The cherries are the only thing wrong with Ford’s recipe. Yet Ford, often uncomfortable when unscripted on camera, sensed that and stepped easily into our troubled minds. “If you don’t like cherries, use blueberries!” I feel seen.

He gave seniors a break on prescription fees. He opened up nurseries and garden centres. He works closely with the feds. But that little white mixer sealed the deal: 9/10 for domestic arts.

Other politicians harden my heart. Former soldier Erin O’Toole, running for leadership of the federal Conservative Party, wins Ford-level points for pronouncing today as “tidday” in his videos, but he seems friendless and unfriendly, military in fact: 4/10 if you’re a dude. Contender Peter “Do you like guns? I do” MacKay will never survive wearing that Christmas sweater with a semi-automatic rifle on it. It’s not his fault he looks like a statue on Easter Island: 2/10 for participation only.

Then there’s Prime Minister Trudeau, whose beard is getting whiter and hair teenage-level argumentative. It falls in his face when he speaks outside Rideau Cottage, the no-frills house where the family lives because he dare not repair the PM’s actual residence because, who does he think he is?

Former PM Stephen Harper didn’t mind living with asbestos and rot at 24 Sussex but we should have fixed it for him. Trudeau, more cautious about his family’s health, recently had a guest house rebuilt at the PM’s Harrington Lake retreat.

In the midst of the pandemic, petty Ottawa journalists leaped on Trudeau, saying he had tried to conceal the reno. It was done so guests would have somewhere non-embarrassing, pleasant even, to stay so they wouldn’t talk amongst themselves — “Is Canada poor?”— the way your Aunt Moira gets at Christmas.

So Trudeau daily steps out of what is a well-appointed shack for any nation in the G7 and soothes parents and children, then reporters. I give him 10/10 for survival, always Canada’s great theme.

Link:

https://www.thestar.com/opinion/star-columnists/2020/05/18/ontario-premier-doug-ford-has-flipped-my-world.html
 

Remius

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BTN,

I totally see myself in that article.  But I am not reluctant to credit Ford.  I’ve even defended his trip to his cottage. 

Strange times...
 

BeyondTheNow

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Remius said:
BTN,

I totally see myself in that article.  But I am not reluctant to credit Ford.  I’ve even defended his trip to his cottage. 

Strange times...

Agreed! I’ve defended him a few times myself.

It’s probably most fitting to describe myself as a bit left of centre. I’m not so engulfed in any of my political standings that I’m unable to see/acknowledge issues with either major party, and I hold personal ideals that fall into one side or the other depending on the particular issue. But as touched on in one of my posts further back, I was...very disappointed, shall we say...when Ford won. (Reasons are sundry.) But for where Ontario is right now, I’m pleased with where things are. Perfect? No. But no politician can make anyone 100% content at all times when conditions are normal, let alone what we’ve been wading through these last months.
 

Remius

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The Ontario Liberals had to go.  I voted NOTA.

When he mishandled the Franco file I vowed to never vote for his party after that.  They%u2019ve walked a lot of that back though.

I don%u2019t agree with everything he%u2019s done but he has shown great leadership in all of this.  I only hope the federal conservatives are watching.  Doesn%u2019t look like it though sadly.

He%u2019d have a solid  chance at the federal level if he were to make that jump.

Spelling edit.
 

BeyondTheNow

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Absolutely. I wasn’t impressed with Wynne, and I’m not sorry that she’s not leading the province through this.

Unfortunately, I don’t think they are either—or rather, if they are, only passively. They need to get themselves figured out and are too occupied with that. Bluntly, the federal Conservatives are a disaster...but I agree he’d hypothetically have a reasonably competitive shot also, and he’s loosely teased about that path.

For now, though, before I can make any concrete decisions as to the absolute level of confidence I’m ready to place in him, I’d like to see how he leads and the decisions he makes post-pandemic. The effects of this will no doubt impact the structures of some of his previous policies/agendas. So I’m curious to see how that will all play out. Of course, it’s going to be quite some time yet before any of this slows down and Ontarians are well-situated into our new ways of life.

 

mariomike

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A double culinary delight for Ford Nation fans. Mikey in, what looks to be, the same kitchen.  :)
 

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Xylric

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The cheesecake my twin brother and I made for Mother's Day (as we have been living with our parents for a number of reasons during this pandemic, the largest being the fact that my father is a cancer survivor with other health issues) was simply the no-bake jello mix with fresh homemade whipped cream and strawberries. The real gift was the chicken wings she requested. It's very nice that the restaurants I used to work at all said the same thing when I moved on to other things - I was welcome to any of the recipes I wanted, if I could reverse engineer them from taste alone. So far, I've only succeeded with a total of three things, all sauces. They got used.

So, as a baker, I appreciate the effort of Ford to make himself seem more typical an Ontario resident. There were times where I idly wondered if he'd been abducted and replaced, either by aliens or the illuminati (possibly both).  :rofl:
 

mariomike

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mariomike said:
A double culinary delight for Ford Nation fans. Mikey in, what looks to be, the same kitchen.  :)

In today's news,

https://www.google.com/search?biw=1280&bih=641&tbs=qdr%3Aw&sxsrf=ALeKk03A7rtKi4CjiQ0Gsq9OSsxUccim6w%3A1591816540012&ei=XDHhXqUt9aXK0w_KmpbgBA&q=%22michael+ford%22+doug&oq=%22michael+ford%22+doug&gs_lcp=CgZwc3ktYWIQAzIFCAAQxAIyBggAEBYQHjIGCAAQFhAeMgYIABAWEB4yBggAEBYQHjIGCAAQFhAeMgYIABAWEB46BQgAEIMBOgIIADoECAAQAzoECCMQJzoKCAAQgwEQFBCHAjoHCAAQFBCHAjoECAAQClD9dFixf2DVhAFoAHAAeACAAawCiAHgB5IBBzAuNC4xLjGYAQCgAQGqAQdnd3Mtd2l6&sclient=psy-ab&ved=0ahUKEwily6jb-vfpAhX1knIEHUqNBUwQ4dUDCAs&uact=5#spf=1591816559502

Doug Ford and Christine Elliott tested for COVID-19
https://www.thestar.com/politics/provincial/2020/06/10/premier-doug-ford-health-minister-christine-elliott-tested-for-covid-19.html
 

PuckChaser

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I feel like there was some sort of intervening event in there...
 

Fishbone Jones

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There's a major point people are missing about Ford's response. Not only did he do a great job, but he was responsible for sheparding approx 40% of Canada's population through this. 35 million total pop/ 15 million from Ontario. That, right there is a major feat he can be proud of. He sailed through where provinces, with almost negligible populations in comparison, floundered and failed about like fish in a forest. He struck a pretty good balance between gut and science. Let's also not forget that a lot of the stuff the Premieres mandated were following what the Fed was ordering them to do.Want to blame someone? Blame Tam and Hadju, whose marching orders come from Trudeau. Probably the last three people in the world anyone should take pandemic advice from. Ford was one of the very few that stood in front of the cameras and said "The buck stops with me. If you want to blame someone, blame me." Seek out and accept responsibility.😉
 
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