New Ontario Government 2018

[Altair]

There are about 7500 people working for the TPS, 5200 police officers, where are TCC is losing 22 of 47 city Councillors.

Not sure that is the best comparison.

 

[Jarnhamar]

No?

What's going to protect Toronto from criminals , 22 council members or 800 police officers?

Just consider the cuts "modernization".

 

[observor 69]

"Premier Doug Ford’s bombshell move to cut the size of Toronto city council nearly in half is a win for the suburbs, one sure to penalize people living in the downtown core, say political experts.

“The media keeps calling this a reform. That’s a mistake,” said Roger Keil, a professor and former director of the City Institute at York University. “This is gerrymandering: changing political boundaries in order to favour the party in power. It is a very blatant attempt to change the rules of the game so the opposition can’t win.”

In the current 44-seat council, suburban councillors held the balance of power, said Evrim Delen, a political consultant and former campaign staffer for 2014 mayoral candidate David Soknacki. After a four-year consultation, Torontonians were poised to elect 47 councillors this October in a redistricting that would add three downtown seats and equalize downtown and suburban representation.

“The 25-seat council definitely takes us back to the suburban advantage,” Delen said. “It brings us back to the time of downtown under-representation.”

The four-year consultation that recommended a 47-seat council dismissed the 25-seat option because downtown wouldn’t have enough representation. City staff explored adding a 26th downtown ward, but this plan was dismissed because it “does not achieve voter parity” and “capacity to represent” — or the number of constituents per city councillor — would be “reduced significantly,” according to the final report of the Toronto Ward Boundary Review."

https://www.thestar.com/news/city_hall/2018/07/28/how-does-the-urban-suburban-divide-play-out-in-a-25-seat-toronto-council.html

 

[Altair]

No?

What's going to protect Toronto from criminals , 22 council members or 800 police officers?

Just consider the cuts "modernization".

Comparing cutting 15 percent of the force, compared to 46 percent of the city council is really not the same thing.

I mean, sure, lets use your logic, and have the Premier eliminate the City of Toronto completely and have it run by the province(actually within his power to do).

Only 47 councillors and 1 mayor positions are eliminated, compared to 800 police officers.

 

[Altair]

"Premier Doug Ford’s bombshell move to cut the size of Toronto city council nearly in half is a win for the suburbs, one sure to penalize people living in the downtown core, say political experts.

“The media keeps calling this a reform. That’s a mistake,” said Roger Keil, a professor and former director of the City Institute at York University. “This is gerrymandering: changing political boundaries in order to favour the party in power. It is a very blatant attempt to change the rules of the game so the opposition can’t win.”

In the current 44-seat council, suburban councillors held the balance of power, said Evrim Delen, a political consultant and former campaign staffer for 2014 mayoral candidate David Soknacki. After a four-year consultation, Torontonians were poised to elect 47 councillors this October in a redistricting that would add three downtown seats and equalize downtown and suburban representation.

“The 25-seat council definitely takes us back to the suburban advantage,” Delen said. “It brings us back to the time of downtown under-representation.”

The four-year consultation that recommended a 47-seat council dismissed the 25-seat option because downtown wouldn’t have enough representation. City staff explored adding a 26th downtown ward, but this plan was dismissed because it “does not achieve voter parity” and “capacity to represent” — or the number of constituents per city councillor — would be “reduced significantly,” according to the final report of the Toronto Ward Boundary Review."

https://www.thestar.com/news/city_hall/2018/07/28/how-does-the-urban-suburban-divide-play-out-in-a-25-seat-toronto-council.html

Yup. Can't win the mayoral race, that's fine, with the provincial one and make the rules as such that Toronto elects ford Nation in their next election.

Best way to take out your political rivals.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Comparing cutting 15 percent of the force, compared to 46 percent of the city council is really not the same thing.

I mean, sure, lets use your logic, and have the Premier eliminate the City of Toronto completely and have it run by the province(actually within his power to do).

Only 47 councillors and 1 mayor positions are eliminated, compared to 800 police officers.

I like the way you think. Maybe put the chief of police in charge of the city, you know, until we can get this crime stuff under wraps.

Maybe you can answer this in layman's terms. What does a city councillor do? What impact will reducing these positions really have?

MarioMike has pointed out numerous times here that Toronto can't install a speed bump without a bunch of permissions. Do they need 47 councillors if they don't even have the ability to get speed bumps installed in a quick and timely manner? Will less councillors mean a more streamlined system with less administration headache or will it double the required amount of effort? What do these men and women actually do?

 

[Altair]

I like the way you think. Maybe put the chief of police in charge of the city, you know, until we can get this crime stuff under wraps.

Maybe you can answer this in layman's terms. What does a city councillor do? What impact will reducing these positions really have?

MarioMike has pointed out numerous times here that Toronto can't install a speed bump without a bunch of permissions. Do they need 47 councillors if they don't even have the ability to get speed bumps installed in a quick and timely manner? Will less councillors mean a more streamlined system with less administration headache or will it double the required amount of effort? What do these men and women actually do?

I do not know what the Goldilocks number is for any major city, western cities seem to get away with less, eastern cities and Quebec usually more, and in the end, the level of services from each varies greatly, both within Canada and within the same province. I do think that Toronto should probably have a little more than 2 more councillors than the city of Ottawa, but what the perfect number is, hard to say.

What I will say is that it's would probably be best for the citizens of Toronto to decide what is best for them, than the Premier of Ontario. After living through the agglomeration process in Quebec, and how a Premier rammed that process down the throats of municipalities without consultation or regard for what the citizens wanted, I will never side with a Premier deciding that they know better than the citizens of the city.

He should just hold a referendum on it, but I doubt he will.

 

[mariomike]

Anyone concerned about emergency services in Toronto during the Ford Nation era,

Toronto's emergency services unions negotiate with City Hall. Not Queen's Park.

"Toronto firefighters have scored a big victory over Mayor Rob Ford in their struggle for jobs and resources."
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/toronto/toronto-council-adds-to-fire-budget-in-big-win-for-firefighters-union/article7401182/

Doug Ford, firefighters union clash
https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2014/04/19/doug_ford_firefighters_union_clash_over_fire_truck.html

The Toronto firefighters union has only ever endorsed one mayoral candidate in recent memory. That was David Miller.

They certainly did not endorse Rob, or Doug during his failed attempt to become mayor.

Toronto Police Chief accepts formal apology and retraction of previous comments from Councillor Doug Ford
https://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2014/08/14/police_chief_bill_blair_to_address_media_today.html

"How Toronto police surveillance closed in on Rob Ford"
https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2013/10/31/tracking_the_mayor_how_toronto_police_surveillance_closed_in_on_rob_ford.html

"'Closed by Rob Ford': Budget cuts close Toronto fire hall, four trucks taken out of service"
https://nationalpost.com/news/closed-by-rob-ford-budget-cuts-close-toronto-fire-hall-four-trucks-taken-out-of-service

Public safety in Toronto was so badly compromised during the Ford Nation era, that Council took away his power to govern during a State of Emergency in the City.

The vote passed 41-2, with only Rob and Doug Ford voting against it.

Taxpayers: Do you think Doug has forgotten that?

If Toronto voters had felt safer during the Ford Nation era, they would have elected Doug Ford instead of John Tory.

As to what Toronto councillors do, they oversee a $11.12 billion dollar annual budget and a 10-year capital budget and plan of $25.98 billion.

How many does it take to run a city?

QUOTE

London, England has only 25 members for a population of more than eight million people. But that city also has 32 elected borough councils, many with more than 50 or even 70 members, and each of those has its own mayor. He also noted that Los Angeles has only 15 councillors and a mayor, but failed to mention the 97 neighbourhood councils that are part of its government structure. Chicago, about the size of Toronto, has 50 councillors, a mayor, and an elected clerk and treasurer — slightly larger than the body Toronto would have had after this election. New York City, between its city council, its community boards, and its borough presidents, has more than 3,000 politicians running it.
https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:ZyAaWNyXAZ8J:https://www.thestar.com/opinion/star-columnists/2018/07/27/fords-move-to-slash-toronto-council-without-consultation-an-undemocratic-move.html+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca

END QUOTE

 

[Jarnhamar]

I do not know what the Goldilocks number is for any major city, western cities seem to get away with less, eastern cities and Quebec usually more, and in the end, the level of services from each varies greatly, both within Canada and within the same province. I do think that Toronto should probably have a little more than 2 more councillors than the city of Ottawa, but what the perfect number is, hard to say.

So like myself you don't know exactly what councillers even do. It seems like you're basing your opinion on the idea that Toronto is bigger = they need more than Ottawa. But how does population size effect a councillers job? If 2 councilors can legitimately do the job that 4 are getting paid to do then cutting the number down to 2 is just streamlining, isn't it?

If there's a correlation that a certain number of citizens require a certain number of councillers then yea maybe it's a bad idea. I haven't seen a solid explanation why Toronto needs 47. I'm quite open minded to being wrong here.

What I will say is that it's would probably be best for the citizens of Toronto to decide what is best for them, than the Premier of Ontario. After living through the agglomeration process in Quebec, and how a Premier rammed that process down the throats of municipalities without consultation or regard for what the citizens wanted, I will never side with a Premier deciding that they know better than the citizens of the city.

It could be best if it's left up to the citizens of Toronto about how many councillors the have, true. That can also be taken advantage of too. Maybe they should bump those numbers up to 60, you know just to make sure everyone's covered. Wink wink.

I'm not exactly in the know how everything works in the military but I'm confident saying the CAF has a problem with too many councillers and not enough police, if you catch my drift.

PS I think I keep butchering how to spell councillor  :nod:

 

[Remius]

So like myself you don't know exactly what councillers even do. It seems like you're basing your opinion on the idea that Toronto is bigger = they need more than Ottawa. But how does population size effect a councillers job? If 2 councilors can legitimately do the job that 4 are getting paid to do then cutting the number down to 2 is just streamlining, isn't it?

If there's a correlation that a certain number of citizens require a certain number of councillers then yea maybe it's a bad idea. I haven't seen a solid explanation why Toronto needs 47. I'm quite open minded to being wrong here.

:

I'm the same way.  I'm not sure how many is enough.  a combination of population and geographic responsibility I would hazard as a guess.

The role of city council is a legislative one.  Creating, developing policies, by-laws, city programs etc.  Voting on the budget, advocating for their constituents.  Being accountable etc.

Consider this though.  Municipal politics will have the greatest and direct impact on your day to day life.  It is likely the one level of government you would want to have the best representation at.  And councillors (in most of ontario) don't have a party system meaning that they truly do follow the wishes of their constituents.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Did Ford not say that this would bring TO in line with the federal and provincial boundaries, instead of a bunch of willy nilly fiefdoms? I don't see a problem doing a reset for that reason.

 

[mariomike]

And councillors (in most of ontario) don't have a party system meaning that they truly do follow the wishes of their constituents.

To paraphrase Mayor LaGuardia, there's no Liberal or Conservative way to fix a sewer. 

 

[Altair]

So like myself you don't know exactly what councillers even do. It seems like you're basing your opinion on the idea that Toronto is bigger = they need more than Ottawa. But how does population size effect a councillers job? If 2 councilors can legitimately do the job that 4 are getting paid to do then cutting the number down to 2 is just streamlining, isn't it?

I am not the most familiar with the system Toronto has set up, I do know that I like the system Montreal has set up, and that Councillors in that city pull double duty in many cases, being both a representative of their Borough and Mayor of their municipality. As such, they have powers of taxation, their budgets, and how those tax dollars are used in their community, as well as having a say in how the greater Montreal area is run. And these Mayor/Councillors site on the montreal regional board for their municipality, they also have their own city Councillors to answer to who are not included in the 65 city councillors for the city of Montreal. For example, in DDO, a demerged city on the island of montreal, they have two spots on the Montreal city council, while having 8 councillors for the town of DDO itself. As a result, there is a lot of Councillors for montrealers to air their grievances to, and in general, in my experience, there are very fast response times to mail and emails about local issues.

Again, I am familiar with how montreal works, and the system is obviously different in Toronto. But it's kind of a open question if 25 Councillors can effectively represent 2.9 million people. 116 000 people for every councillor to be responsible for. if even 1 percent of them are emailing their representative a week, that's over a 1000 emails to respond to. Are these councillors getting increased staffing? Are they just working more overtime? Are they going to burn out and not even try to keep up anymore? Hard to say. Is it saving money? Probably not much.

If there's a correlation that a certain number of citizens require a certain number of councillers then yea maybe it's a bad idea. I haven't seen a solid explanation why Toronto needs 47. I'm quite open minded to being wrong here.

It could be best if it's left up to the citizens of Toronto about how many councillors the have, true. That can also be taken advantage of too. Maybe they should bump those numbers up to 60, you know just to make sure everyone's covered. Wink wink.

Maybe. Maybe not. But maybe a tad bit of consultation should have been done. Instead it's a top down, rammed through legislation, in the middle of a election campaign. The campaign began on may 7th. So I expect lawsuits from those running, wanting to be reimbursed for time off work, nomination fees, money spend campaigning. This isn't the way to do thing, but this is how it's being done.

I'm not exactly in the know how everything works in the military but I'm confident saying the CAF has a problem with too many councillers and not enough police, if you catch my drift.

PS I think I keep butchering how to spell councillor  :nod:

Yes, however just firing 46 percent of the officers in the CF without any idea how that would effect day to day running of the CF, operations, readiness, while not adding a single NCM wouldn't be the way you would fix things, is it?

Edit: DDO has 8 councillors, not 6.

 

[Altair]

Did Ford not say that this would bring TO in line with the federal and provincial boundaries, instead of a bunch of willy nilly fiefdoms? I don't see a problem doing a reset for that reason.

Don't buy that for a second.

Ottawa has 7 federal ridings.

Carleton-Mississippi Mills
Nepean-Carleton
Ottawa Centre
Ottawa-Orléans
Ottawa South
Ottawa-Vanier
Ottawa West-Nepean

They currently have 23 councillors. Ford has no plans to change the amount of councillors in Ottawa.

Hamilton has 5 federal ridings. They currently have 15 councillors + a mayor. No plans to change that.

Only Toronto. I wonder why? Probably because he didn't lose elections in these two municipalities.

 

[Remius]

The debate is hardly new.

This op ed from the Tor Star in 2014 was in favour of what Ford just did.

https://www.thestar.com/opinion/commentary/2014/11/19/torontos_dysfunctional_city_hall_needs_reform.html

it actually mentions matching it to federal ridings...

 

[Altair]

The debate is hardly new.

This op ed from the Tor Star in 2014 was in favour of what Ford just did.

https://www.thestar.com/opinion/commentary/2014/11/19/torontos_dysfunctional_city_hall_needs_reform.html

it actually mentions matching it to federal ridings...

The solution is in the Article.

Montreal and New York have party systems.

 

[mariomike]

This op ed from the Tor Star in 2014 was in favour of what Ford just did.
https://www.thestar.com/opinion/commentary/2014/11/19/torontos_dysfunctional_city_hall_needs_reform.html

Same link Puckchaser posted in Reply #65.

https://www.thestar.com/opinion/commentary/2014/11/19/torontos_dysfunctional_city_hall_needs_reform.html

It is an "Opinion - Commentary" from an individual.

This is also an "Opinion - Commentary" from an individual. In the very same Toronto Star. Two days before the link you and Puckchaser selected to post,

QUOTE

"Downsizing city council doesn't make sense"
Nov. 17, 2014
https://www.thestar.com/opinion/commentary/2014/11/17/downsizing_city_council_doesnt_make_sense.html

END QUOTE

 

[PuckChaser]

Only Toronto. I wonder why? Probably because he didn't lose elections in these two municipalities.

Geography has to play a major role in number of councillors/MPPs/MPs as well. There's dimishing returns when your councillor is responsible for a massive area. You're telling me that Toronto councillors will be hard done by to represent 26 sq KM areas, instead of 12.5 sq KM? Meanwhile, if the City of Ottawa follows the new Toronto model, they go from roughly 100 sq KM wards to 330 sq KM wards.

Or you know, evil Tories.

 

[Altair]

Or you know, evil Tories.

population has way more to do with,  or should have way more to do with,  the number of councillors in a region.

How is a city councilor supposed to effectively represent around 115 000 constituents?  That is more people than most canadians municipalities which have a mayor and several councillors of their own.

 

[PuckChaser]

How is a city councilor supposed to effectively represent around 115 000 constituents?

Its a lot easier when your ward is only 10KM wide vice 40 or 50 KM. When you cram 4,000 people in a sq KM, a lot of their issues are similar because most are living in multi-family apartments. One neighbourhood 10 KM away can have a completely different set of priorities than another when you're in the suburbs.

I have a feeling a lot of the councillors are more pissed about losing this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dDfr89eRd0 than actually losing representation of their constituency.

At the end of the day, this will happen, people will forget it happened by the end of the election in October and go back to complaining about transit in Toronto.