No more rifles on drill/grad parade?

[Fishbone Jones]

Officers with guns and sharp pointy things scare the bejesus out of me

 

[MJP]

Creating identity, pride, and esprit de corps is important. Things like drill, traditions, and even limited hazing (not beating the crap out of someone or any of that nonsense, but making them earn a place) has value.

The farther we get from creating that identity and more we focus on the CAF just being another job the worse our attrition shall be. Therefore the effort to simply get people to OFP with no ‘fluff’ shall be wasted as they will jump ship as there is nothing tying them to the organization.

Not quite sure people won't relate to the org because we cut rifle drill at BMQ/BMOQ

Recruiting for militaries is down across the Western world so there is obviously something larger at play. One could argue changing identity is the issue or maybe the old ways of endearing ourselves to folks is not appealing. It is probably much more complex than either of those but in my opinion ppl join and stay in an org that cares for them and the CAF needs to get better on that side of the house, as in general the people we want to join are way smarter than those of yesteryear and won't put up with being treated poorly.

Rifle drill is a useful step in learning awareness of weapons handling. Gets people used to the concept of holding and carrying a rifle and where it's pointed, long before you introduce live ammunition into the equation.

Meh, actually carrying a weapon like you are going to employ them and doing the proper drills get ppl familiar with the weapon, not carry it around like an accessory IMHO.

Anecdotal, but post 2006 Afghan tour we went to teach a Basic Infantry crse in Wx and convinced the school to allow us to have the troops always carry their weapons like they were readied. They were much better weapon wise than I remember being post course where my course did drill like suckers the entire time. But hey I could do a really good present arms I guess

 

[CountDC]

or it could be that they are way more self entitled, babied, candy assed people that need someone to hold their hand and tell them that 2+2=4. I certainly don't see the "way smarter" crowd you mention. Are they keeping them all in the NCR? Maybe I am just getting too old but it does get tiring telling people the same thing over and over. Used to be 2 or 3 times was enough now it is every time.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Anecdotal, but post 2006 Afghan tour we went to teach a Basic Infantry crse in Wx and convinced the school to allow us to have the troops always carry their weapons like they were readied. They were much better weapon wise than I remember being post course where my course did drill like suckers the entire time. But hey I could do a really good present arms I guess

I hope those weapons were carried 'hot' too

 

[MJP]

or it could be that they are way more self entitled, babied, candy assed people that need someone to hold their hand and tell them that 2+2=4. I certainly don't see the "way smarter" crowd you mention. Are they keeping them all in the NCR? Maybe I am just getting too old but it does get tiring telling people the same thing over and over. Used to be 2 or 3 times was enough now it is every time.

That is quite the broad brush.....

I understand though getting tired of telling people the same thing over and over again. I feel the same way when I have to tell some old dinosaur how to log into their computer or how to do some minor task with technology. I also don't think that all dinosaurs people are bad at technology because mass generalizations are usually wrong

 

[daftandbarmy]

That is quite the broad brush.....

I understand though getting tired of telling people the same thing over and over again. I feel the same way when I have to tell some old dinosaur how to log into their computer or how to do some minor task with technology. I also don't think that all dinosaurs people are bad at technology because mass generalizations are usually wrong

Dude....

 

[Colin Parkinson]

That is quite the broad brush.....

I understand though getting tired of telling people the same thing over and over again. I feel the same way when I have to tell some old dinosaur how to log into their computer or how to do some minor task with technology. I also don't think that all dinosaurs people are bad at technology because mass generalizations are usually wrong

Start introducing the "Technology aware generation" to GPS and GIS and their minds for the most part goes blank. This generation is made up of users and makers. The kids who are "makers of technolgy/software" are absolutely wizards. However the users are basically only good at swiping on their cellphone and are unaware of the web that supports such stuff.

As for the carrying at the ready or shoulder arms, both are good. Actually carrying the weapon and getting used to it is the goal. Both feed into that goal. The basic rifle drill is the baby steps to the other stuff.

 

[shiska]

However the users are basically only good at swiping on their cellphone and are unaware of the web that supports such stuff.

I've mentioned it before but I work in post secondary ed, and specifically on the technology side and this was one of the biggest shocks to me. The amount of kids who have no idea how to use a keyboard or a windows computer actually blows my mind. Young people (those currently under 30 yrs old) mostly grew up using phones and ipads and it's seriously affecting their ability to use business tech effectively. Anecdotally, the profs I've spoken with regularly complain that the new students are getting dumber, are less able to navigate university processes, and less able to think independantly.

 

[Furniture]

I've mentioned it before but I work in post secondary ed, and specifically on the technology side and this was one of the biggest shocks to me. The amount of kids who have no idea how to use a keyboard or a windows computer actually blows my mind. Young people (those currently under 30 yrs old) mostly grew up using phones and ipads and it's seriously affecting their ability to use business tech effectively. Anecdotally, the profs I've spoken with regularly complain that the new students are getting dumber, are less able to navigate university processes, and less able to think independantly.

It's not that people are dumber, it's that they have been sheltered from decisions and consequences by the adults around them.

Don't blame Gen Z for their issues, blame their Boomer, Gen X, and Millennial parents/teachers.

 

[dimsum]

Start introducing the "Technology aware generation" to GPS and GIS and their minds for the most part goes blank. This generation is made up of users and makers. The kids who are "makers of technolgy/software" are absolutely wizards. However the users are basically only good at swiping on their cellphone and are unaware of the web that supports such stuff.

As for the carrying at the ready or shoulder arms, both are good. Actually carrying the weapon and getting used to it is the goal. Both feed into that goal. The basic rifle drill is the baby steps to the other stuff.

Is it really that different than previous generations? My generation and my parents’ generation had folks who know how to build and/or fix things, and others who don’t.

Anyway, back on topic, would holding a rifle correctly at the Present Arms really translate well to someone who ends up being an Aviation Tech or Cyber Operator? If not, then you can teach rifle drill (or drill, to be honest) after they’re trained to be whatever trade.

We are trying to reconstitute (yeah that word that people say is a joke) so moving around stuff that’s not needed right now is a good thing.

We want guards and parade stuff? Make a full-time unit like the Wachbataillon or the Australian Federation Guard for the big ceremonies.

 

[MJP]

Is it really that different than previous generations? My generation and my parents’ generation had folks who know how to build and/or fix things, and others who don’t.

Every generation is worse than its predecessors just ask the previous generation I can imagine the whining of the generation before the Greek Phalanx & Roman Maniple was introduced saying they did war too easy now.

Considering that boomers made up the sex love and rock and roll generation that was wildly maligned at the time but turned out to be ok at life later on plus many other examples likely means that generations are different not worse.

 

[MJP]

.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Is it really that different than previous generations? My generation and my parents’ generation had folks who know how to build and/or fix things, and others who don’t.

Anyway, back on topic, would holding a rifle correctly at the Present Arms really translate well to someone who ends up being an Aviation Tech or Cyber Operator? If not, then you can teach rifle drill (or drill, to be honest) after they’re trained to be whatever trade.

We are trying to reconstitute (yeah that word that people say is a joke) so moving around stuff that’s not needed right now is a good thing.

We want guards and parade stuff? Make a full-time unit like the Wachbataillon or the Australian Federation Guard for the big ceremonies.

How about these guys?

Legion of Frontiersmen - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Eaglelord17]

Not quite sure people won't relate to the org because we cut rifle drill at BMQ/BMOQ

Recruiting for militaries is down across the Western world so there is obviously something larger at play. One could argue changing identity is the issue or maybe the old ways of endearing ourselves to folks is not appealing. It is probably much more complex than either of those but in my opinion ppl join and stay in an org that cares for them and the CAF needs to get better on that side of the house, as in general the people we want to join are way smarter than those of yesteryear and won't put up with being treated poorly.



Meh, actually carrying a weapon like you are going to employ them and doing the proper drills get ppl familiar with the weapon, not carry it around like an accessory IMHO.

Anecdotal, but post 2006 Afghan tour we went to teach a Basic Infantry crse in Wx and convinced the school to allow us to have the troops always carry their weapons like they were readied. They were much better weapon wise than I remember being post course where my course did drill like suckers the entire time. But hey I could do a really good present arms I guess

Recruiting is down for western militaries, I stated retention though, which is specific extra low in the CAF. It also lines up pretty accurately with when we stopped pushing our culture and identity.

Substantially lower camaraderie, reduced identity with the organization, and a look at whats going on around you making them realize what reason are they staying for? We have paid people substantially less yet never had the retention issues we have today, why? There was a identity and pride in who and what we are. There is a reason every military in the world seeks to develop it.

 

[MJP]

Recruiting is down for western militaries, I stated retention though, which is specific extra low in the CAF. It also lines up pretty accurately with when we stopped pushing our culture and identity.

Substantially lower camaraderie, reduced identity with the organization, and a look at whats going on around you making them realize what reason are they staying for? We have paid people substantially less yet never had the retention issues we have today, why? There was a identity and pride in who and what we are. There is a reason every military in the world seeks to develop it.

Who exactly are we not retaining and why is likely the larger question. You have brought forward a potential correlation which is an interesting one but would love to see some data that backs up any assertion on retention. Very anecdotal but most exit interviews I did with folks or managed on behalf of the CO usually cited desire for better work/life balance, regional stability or better spousal opportunities, not cultural issues but I suspect we have ppl that leave for those reasons as well.

I will also point out that you use identity as the reason people stayed before but that was a societal trait shared across many western countries where folks stay with 1-2 companies for much of their career. Society and people have changed and folks are more willing to and expect to move companies, some more frequently than others. I would expect the folks that join the CAF also follow that trend as they come from that soociety. Why that societal shift occured may provide insight at a macro level to the CAF shift as well.

I do agree that culture and identity play a role in anyone choosing to stay within any organization. What cultural and identity attributes those are likely shift the same way society shifts. What one generation may value and cherish within their workplaces is not what another generation wants.

 

[Kat Stevens]

That is quite the broad brush.....

I understand though getting tired of telling people the same thing over and over again. I feel the same way when I have to tell some old dinosaur how to log into their computer or how to do some minor task with technology. I also don't think that all dinosaurs people are bad at technology because mass generalizations are usually wrong

Do yourself a favour and don't get old, lest you find yourself being denigrated by some smarmy young prick in a public forum who's pretty sure he's got the answers to questions that haven't even been thought of yet. It gets boring pretty fast.

 

[MJP]

Do yourself a favour and don't get old, lest you find yourself being denigrated by some smarmy young prick in a public forum who's pretty sure he's got the answers to questions that haven't even been thought of yet. It gets boring pretty

Cute story brah, got anything of substance to add?

 

[Kat Stevens]

Clearly not, sis, because I'm old and therefore irrelevant, carry on.

 

[MJP]

Clearly not, sis, because I'm old and therefore irrelevant, carry on.

Being old isn't an impediment man. Adding nothing of value to the conversation is a killla dude. It is an important conversation for the CAF cause this stuff matters. It is an innocuous subject but it does give insight to larger issues at play from a number of perspectives.


We may be wrong disassociating weapons drill with BMQ/BMOQ. Maybe it matters, maybe doesn't but it isn't a irrelevant conversation. If if one dislikes the direction a conversation takes then they were free to add some reasonable interjection. You just straight up implied that I was being the know all prick on the subject. Feel free to add a reasonable thought to the conversation but I am trying to say that there may be many reasons why current folks may be leaving or not being recruited.

If you have reasonable ideas of why they are not that aren't ad homien insults,would love to hear them.

 

[OldSolduer]

If I might weigh in:

I've had some time to think about this. Drill has been part of being in a military forever. The Greeks did it, the Romans etc etc.

Drill serves several purposes and I know some will not agree.

1. Teamwork - everyone moves at the same time in the same direction in response to a command. If that doesn't happen its a crap show;

2. Its bloody stressful as a young soldier to perform properly for yourself and your peers and your instructor. Drill can be a lesson in how to handle that stress;

3. Drill teaches people to obey orders. The military isn't a democracy and as a young recruit you obey those orders;

4. Weapons drill - which is what this is all about - gives a new soldier a certain amount of confidence with that weapon, just learning how to do drill with it in conjunction with marksmanship training;

5. Drill imparts a certain amount of self discipline, for instance not shuffling around or swatting a mosquito when you're at the position of attention. Otherwise the discipline is imposed and its not fun. Trust me. (Sgt Archie Rafters, The RCR scared the hell out of me)

Now whether the CAF decides when weapons drill is taught on BMQ or in later training is a topic worth discussing.

How long before the post BMQ training (ie TQ3 or whatever it is called) decides they don't have time to teach weapons drill?

Just a thought.