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Non-Commissioned Pilots in the RCAF Discussion

SupersonicMax

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That was not my point.

And yes, you have (probably fortunately) little awareness of the sheer amount of staff jobs filled by operators from all arms, including pilots, that exist in Ottawa. I am 100% confident that the staff jobs at Sqn level are both meaningful and relevant, likely the same could be said for some percentage of jobs at Wing/Division. But my conversations with most folks during my last 15 years at NDHQ (yes I know) lead me to believe that there are a shitload of pilot guys/gals (from Capt to Col) who would rather be flying. (and most of whom will never pilot an AC again). They are filling staff jobs that could be better filled by others, but the RCAF has determined that only a Pilot can fill that spot. (hmmmmm...trying to keep PML numbers doesn't necessarily translate into a long-term retention strategy.)
Not sure about other communities, but we don’t put Capt to LCol in staff job that don’t absolutely require a pilot. We simply cannot afford it.
 

Eye In The Sky

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I asked that question. We have been debating whether or not Pilots should be paid more from a retention standpoint. Their actual value to the institution is as a pilot, their value to external market forces is as a pilot. If they can not fulfill that value equation, then their desirability (market value) drops significantly. You wouldn't pay a high-precision welder with nervous tics a lot of money.

I'd typed out a reply "why not pilots, we do it for all trades"...and then thought "I'd better read the policy...".

CBI 204.03 Pay on occupation transfer

204.03(2) (Rate of pay - compulsory occupational transfer) Subject to paragraph (3), the rate of pay of an officer or non-commissioned member who was compulsorily occupationally transferred shall be the greater of:

  1. the rate of pay established for the pay increment determined in accordance with CBI 204.015 (Pay Increments) for the member's rank, pay level and new trade group that is nearest to, but not less than, the rate of pay the member was receiving on the day immediately prior to the member's transfer, but not to exceed the rate of pay for the highest pay increment in the new rank and trade group; or
  2. the rate of pay before the change of military occupation until the rate of pay in the new or downgraded military occupation for the rank, pay increment and, if applicable, pay level and trade group is greater than or equal to the rate of pay before the change of military occupation and any higher pay increment for the rank and, if applicable, pay level and trade group to which the member would have become entitled had the member remained in the former military occupation;
together with any upwards adjustments to the rates of pay determined under subparagraphs (a) and (b) that may be established from time to time.

204.03(3) (Exception – compulsory occupational transfer) Paragraph (2) of this instruction does not apply to pilots who are paid under CBI 204.215 (Pay – Officers – Pilots).

I'll assume you knew the current policy and it was me that did not.

I'm not sure I agree with the current policy; why only pilots? What if a MO COTs for any reason to HCA? or Log?
 
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Good2Golf

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An MO, I’m sure, would be OT’ing to RP (retired person) or PP (private practice), vice HCA or Log. Probably same for LegalO. Probably why only PLT and not PLT/MO/LegalO.
 

Blackadder1916

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. . . why only pilots? What if a MO COTs for any reason to HCA? or Log?

While it might be conceivable that an MO would voluntarily change occupations (I did know one doctor who went RCE/LEME but that was in the Militia), about the only circumstance that would preclude a physician from being unable to meet the standards of his occupation is if he no longer had a "license to carry out the unrestricted practice of medicine in a Canadian province or territory" (as per CBI 204.216) and even then I've known of occasions when the CF continued employing unlicensed military physicians in medical jobs that did not require them to have any patient contact (except for one instance when the MO deployed with us to Africa) or to provide any clinical opinion. While a pilot could be removed from flying because his medical category changed, his med cat could still meet CEMS, however, if a doctor's med cat falls below the minimum standard it's below the minimum standard for almost every other occupation.
 

Weinie

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I'd typed out a reply "why not pilots, we do it for all trades"...and then thought "I'd better read the policy...".

CBI 204.03 Pay on occupation transfer

204.03(2) (Rate of pay - compulsory occupational transfer) Subject to paragraph (3), the rate of pay of an officer or non-commissioned member who was compulsorily occupationally transferred shall be the greater of:

  1. the rate of pay established for the pay increment determined in accordance with CBI 204.015 (Pay Increments) for the member's rank, pay level and new trade group that is nearest to, but not less than, the rate of pay the member was receiving on the day immediately prior to the member's transfer, but not to exceed the rate of pay for the highest pay increment in the new rank and trade group; or
  2. the rate of pay before the change of military occupation until the rate of pay in the new or downgraded military occupation for the rank, pay increment and, if applicable, pay level and trade group is greater than or equal to the rate of pay before the change of military occupation and any higher pay increment for the rank and, if applicable, pay level and trade group to which the member would have become entitled had the member remained in the former military occupation;
together with any upwards adjustments to the rates of pay determined under subparagraphs (a) and (b) that may be established from time to time.

204.03(3) (Exception – compulsory occupational transfer) Paragraph (2) of this instruction does not apply to pilots who are paid under CBI 204.215 (Pay – Officers – Pilots).

I'll assume you knew the current policy and it was me that did not.

I'm not sure I agree with the current policy; why only pilots? What if a MO COTs for any reason to HCA? or Log?
Actually, I didn't, but it doesn't change my response. If market value is the determinant of pay, which we have used to determine other specialist Officer and NCM pay rates, and then a person can not deliver that which the market values, then they should not be compensated in any manner than others in a similar market.

I do not know the answer to the current pilot conundrum, but as I have stated before in this forum, throwing money at it will not be the panacea.
 

SupersonicMax

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CBI 204.03 Pay on occupation transfer

204.03(2) (Rate of pay - compulsory occupational transfer) Subject to paragraph (3), the rate of pay of an officer or non-commissioned member who was compulsorily occupationally transferred shall be the greater of:

  1. the rate of pay established for the pay increment determined in accordance with CBI 204.015 (Pay Increments) for the member's rank, pay level and new trade group that is nearest to, but not less than, the rate of pay the member was receiving on the day immediately prior to the member's transfer, but not to exceed the rate of pay for the highest pay increment in the new rank and trade group; or
  2. the rate of pay before the change of military occupation until the rate of pay in the new or downgraded military occupation for the rank, pay increment and, if applicable, pay level and trade group is greater than or equal to the rate of pay before the change of military occupation and any higher pay increment for the rank and, if applicable, pay level and trade group to which the member would have become entitled had the member remained in the former military occupation;
together with any upwards adjustments to the rates of pay determined under subparagraphs (a) and (b) that may be established from time to time.

204.03(3) (Exception – compulsory occupational transfer) Paragraph (2) of this instruction does not apply to pilots who are paid under CBI 204.215 (Pay – Officers – Pilots).
I was unaware of this CBI. Good to know! Hypothetical question I am not sure ever happened but interesting thought experiment nonetheless to see gaps in policy. A pilot, let's stay Major, is forced to COT for medical reasons. I am assuming here they go back to Capt in his new trade. Would they be paid as Capt Basic under the GSO payscale? I would expect, in the CBI, something along the lines of being paid the equivalent of their current pay/incentive level but on the GSO scale rather than the pilot scale?
 

Eye In The Sky

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The post I made earlier seems to be the direction WRT pay for COT (NCM or Officer). Maybe I am reading it wrong (it was a long day...), but I think a Pilot Major who was COTd to a GSO classification and dropped to Capt, would be at PI 10 on OT.

"...but not to exceed the rate of pay for the highest pay increment in the new rank and trade group" (excerpt from the CBI I posted above, Para 1)
 
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