North Korea (Superthread)

[Nemo888]

The island in meaningless. Pyonyang wants something. Like the "famine" the last time. The famine that could have been averted if they reduced their defence spending by 1%. AT the time Vietnam owed them a huge sum of money and offered to pay them in rice instead of arms. North Korea refused and blackmailed the USA and China to give food aid.

The troop situation back then was Taiwan, Vietnam, South Korea and Japan had a smaller force than China. If you added North Korea to that equation they had a larger force. They are the balance point in Asian power struggles. The Kim's know this. They are obviously feeling ignored. The only way to stop this is to hurt the elite. They starve their own citizens, even children, to death for small for political gains. Everyone is expendable. Bombing them back is playing into their hands. We need to kill a Kim. Maybe his sister who was just made a general.

 

[Oh No a Canadian]

Does North Korea and China have nukes?

yes and yes

 

[Nemo888]

North Korea also has an eight million Zergling(reservist) rush.

 

[a_majoor]

Once again going back to Kaplan provides the best analysis and possible answers to what happens next.

The best answer in the short term would be to flood the DPRK with information, in the form of cheap disposable radios, DVD players etc. to encourage the regime to rot from the inside. The West should not attempt to offer any food or economic "aid" as a bribe (the probable real reason for the DPRK's behaviour), rather let China carry the burden there. Since China seems pleased to use the DPRK as its cats paw to destabilize the region, placing the DPRK on "ignore" and shifting the economic burden on the Chinese seems the best response. (If we really want to be clever, include the fact that the Chinese supply most of the food and fuel to the DPRK as part of the information package and suggest that Koreans might try going to China for a better life. Let the Chinese deal with several million refugees and they might not be so eager to stir the pot elsewhere).

 

[Jarnhamar]

Last I heard, most of North Korea is without electricity, let alone the internet:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_in_North_Korea

Deception plan, thats all.

yes and yes

Okay, forget scaring them with nukes.

North Korea also has an eight million Zergling(reservist) rush.

No problem.
We'll just offer to feed them (and apparently let them play SC) and they will defect to the south.

 

[trampbike]

http://www.korea-dpr.com/forum/

On 23nd of November at 1300 local time the South Korean fired shots inside the Northern Limit Line, towards DPRK.  At 1434 upon receiving the order from the Supreme Command of the Korean People’s Army, we returned fire against the South Korean attackers based in the military camp of Yongpyong.

The answer against the South Korean provocation shows that DPRK honour its promise as stated before and announced in KCNA that any aggression against the North will be met with material response.

The DPRK does not expect Lee Myung-Bak and his clique nor the US to continue escalating the conflict as it is demonstrated that DPRK has the superior power and will not bow down to the imperialist who try to stifle and isolate the DPRK.

The DPRK urges South Korea and USA to renounce its current hardline anti-DPRK sentiment and resume the peace talk on a respectful one to one dialogue.

It's quite the website...  :
http://www.korea-dpr.com/

 

[The Bread Guy]

It's quite the website...  :
http://www.korea-dpr.com/

Hey, are you dissing the golf shirts available at the swag shop?
http://www.cafepress.ca/kfashop

Meanwhile, "uh leettle mo' "1 here from the PRK official news agency:

.... The south Korean puppet group perpetrated such reckless military provocation as firing dozens of shells inside the territorial waters of the DPRK side around Yonphyong Islet in the West Sea of Korea from 13:00 on Nov. 23 despite the repeated warnings of the DPRK while staging the war maneuvers for a war of aggression on it codenamed Hoguk, escalating the tension on the Korean Peninsula.

The above-said military provocation is part of its sinister attempt to defend the brigandish "northern limit line," while frequently infiltrating its naval warships into the territorial waters of the DPRK side under the pretext of "intercepting fishing boats."

The revolutionary armed forces of the DPRK standing guard over the inviolable territorial waters of the country took such decisive military step as reacting to the military provocation of the puppet group with a prompt powerful physical strike.

It is a traditional mode of counter-action of the army of the DPRK to counter the firing of the provocateurs with merciless strikes.

Should the south Korean puppet group dare intrude into the territorial waters of the DPRK even 0.001 mm, the revolutionary armed forces of the DPRK will unhesitatingly continue taking merciless military counter-actions against it.

It should bear in mind the solemn warning of the revolutionary armed forces of the DPRK that they do not make an empty talk.

There is in the West Sea of Korea only the maritime military demarcation line set by the DPRK.

In other block-buster North Korean news, "Kim Jong Il Inspects Newly Built Soy Sauce Shop at Ryongsong" (I'm not making this up).

More of this kind of thing here in English:
http://www.kcna.co.jp/index-e.htm

1 - From this fine satirical classic.

 

[trampbike]

You've got to love such accurate information (found here: http://www.korea-dpr.com/reunification.htm):

Korea is an independent and sovereign state, but the South is still controlled by the
imperialist interests and the U.S. troops .If any South Korean citizen tries to visit North Korea crossing the big concrete wall, he'll be killed by the american soldiers. The 'Security Law' in South Korea forbides to any South Korean citizen to talk or read about the North or else he'll be punished with jail or even death penalty.

 

[Trueblue]

I think something has to be done, now.

Even in the event that the country just "dissolves" as many here put it (not saying it won't happen) without a serious presence in the country beforehand it would be way too easy for nuclear weapons to go missing and end up in god knows whose hands.

 

[aesop081]

I think something has to be done, now.

Sure.

Do what ?

Whos going to do it ?

No one has the desire to invade the place and be responsible for sorting that mess out. China has no desire to share a border with a large US presence. The South has everything to lose if a war was to break out.

Status quo, with all the occasional sabre rattling, works for everyone. Nothing's happenning anytime soon.

 

[Edward Campbell]

It seems to me that China is waiting and seeing - and the deployment of a US aircraft carrier battle group will be precisely what China does not want to see.

The Chinese were very, very vocal about US carriers this summer – the local media (newspapers and TV) were full of it. The Chinese government, which controls the major news sources, will tell the people that the USA is threatening China with nuclear weapons in Chinese waters. The USA will protest that the accusation is false but the Chinese people will believe their own government, not Washington.

The insertion of the carrier, which is, probably about the minimum response available to Obama, is too much response for Beijing. China can, and when it suits it, will reign in the North Koreans – it will do so because it values South Korea far more than it values North Korea. But, for the moment, the North Koreans are causing problems for the USA, not for China. From the Chinese point of view nothing much is wrong.

What is “wrong,” for the Chinese, is a war in Asia. The Chinese cannot see how adding a huge, powerful, US carrier battle group to the South China Sea makes that war less likely. They, the Chinese, will, I guess sit on their hands and allow the situation to fester. Remember the Chinese strategic aim: all American military forces out of Korea, then Korean reunification, with the Seoul leadership in charge of a democratic, capitalist nation, and the newly unified Korea firmly in China's sphere of influence.

 

[Nemo888]

The Soviet Union has dissolved. Russia and China have embraced capitalism.  The cold war is over.

Why do we still have spend so many resources protecting theses countries? I don't see how Korea, Taiwan and Japan making us pay for their defence is in our interest. Why don't we go home or start sending a monthly bill in the mail? China is America's biggest trading partner, not some evil enemy. This is seems like a silly hold over kept in place by now meaningless habit and propaganda. NKorea shelled SKorea. I really don't give a $^!^. I'm not Korean. I'm actually getting tired of being ripped off by these untaxed protectorates.

 

[vorden]

The cold war may be declared over, but China is a large threat to the states economically.

 

[Nemo888]

The cold war may be declared over, but China is a large threat to the states economically.

You have it backwards. The trade imbalance is 5 to 1. China would collapse without 300 BILLION annual US imports. The USA could also devalue their currency again, decimating the Chinese economy. What can China do?

Korea does stir up  my old Cold War programming. I'd love to kill a commie for mommy. Bur reality has changed no? The Koreans need to stop making the USA spend billions on their defence.

 

[aesop081]

Why don't we go home

Isolationism really worked well in the past eh ?

I'm not Korean.

So no matter what country or who it happens to , no matter what, if they are not Canadian, you don't give a crap ?

I'm actually getting tired of being ripped off by these untaxed protectorates.

I'm getting tired of oxygen thieves who don't have the intellectual capacity to understand that events around the world affect us all. We can either have influence in things that have strategic interest to us or we can just sit back and suffer the consequences.

 

[Edward Campbell]

The cold war may be declared over, but China is a large threat to the states economically.

China is one of the USA's main creditors; the two are in a symbiotic relationship. While China does, particularly, wish the USA well it wishes it no harm, either.

China seeks its own, special, place in the world - which it does not view quite the same way as we. The Chinese expect to be respected for their power - of all sorts,and  for both their culture and, especially, their civilization which they regard as being, in every way, superior to that of all others. The classical Western power relationships have never much impressed the Chinese; Alexander the Great and Julius Caesar are not seen to be "great" because whatever they conquered or built did  not last.

The British impressed the Chinese in the 19th century; it was interesting and instructive that a tiny island could rule a global empire built and maintained, primarily, on trade rather than conventional (barbaric) military power. But, as the Chinese learned, the military power existed and could be unleashed quickly and effectively (ruthlessly).

The Chinese were impressed by the Americans for, above all, their creativity in all things. I say they were impressed because my sense is that most educated Chinese regard the USA as a huge, blind, stumbling giant - powerful and dangerous but without vision, without an aim.

 

[Nemo888]

How do we afford this?  Why can't the Koreans pay for their own defence or at least pay us what it costs? What are we gaining in Asia now that the Cold War is over? Do you want troops in Somalia and Darfur as well? They actually need our help.
Aviator personal insults are your strong suit. Most likely indicating your arguments have no meaningful substance. The old reasons why we went there are gone. You say to have "influence". Is expensive military influence serving our best interest or theirs? I think it might be theirs. We are 54 billion dollars in the hole for this single year. About 1800$ per person. Defending rich countries that should defend themselves needs to be put on the table.

 

[aesop081]

What are we gaining in Asia now that the Cold War is over?

Pardon ? We have no economic interests in Asia ?

Do you want troops in Somalia and Darfur as well?

No. I personaly do not. That does not mean that, as a nation, we do not have interest in doing so.

We are 54 billion dollars in the hole for this single year. About 1800$ per person. Defending places that should defend themselves needs to be put on the table.

Have you bothered to ask yourself why we are in the hole all that money ? Have you bothered to ask yourself if this is related in any way to our involvement in Asian security matters ? Did you even bother to ask if we contribute anything major to Asian security ?

I want you to show me exactly how much of that 54 billion deficit is caused by Asian security participation ........

 

[Nemo888]

Afghanistan is technically Asia.

Why are economic interests synonymous with military ones? What are (NATO or the USA's) goals in Asia with a military presence? Is it worth the effort? Can economic and diplomatic means be more effective? Are countries like Japan and Korea screwing us into paying for their defence while giving very little in return?

I'll even give you some of those possible long term goals.
-Protecting Australia.
-Base of Operations in the region.
-Indonesia has the Muslim worlds strongest Army. Be nice to keep an eye on them. They may make moves on the Philippines again. They haven't stopped stirring up fundamentalism in the region.

 

[aesop081]

Afghanistan is technically Asia.

Sure. We can play that game if you wish.

Why are economic interests synonymous with military ones?

Stability is great when one wants the economy to work well.

Are countries like Japan and Korea screwing us into paying for their defence while giving very little in return?

Yes, Japan is screwing us. They spend a metric shyte ton more on defence than Canada does and they are screwing us.