NSA Whistle-blower Ed Snowden
- Thread starter Dkeh
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So what, exactly, is the NSA (and possibly every other advanced Intelligence agency on Earth) actually getting when they access your phone metadata? You might be amazed. Follow the link for the graphics (a fair number)
http://www.businessinsider.com/what-you-can-learn-from-phone-metadata-2013-7
http://www.businessinsider.com/what-you-can-learn-from-phone-metadata-2013-7
- Reaction score
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Inquisitor said:
I understand the point you are trying to make but this was not the best example to use, as the insurance companies have access to your health records, as your doctor needs to submit information in order to receive payment. And you are required to disclose all medical conditions when at time of enrollment. Regardless of all that, you cannot be denied insurance for a preexisting condition under the ACA.
With respect to a moral obligation not to comply, let's say for arguments sake that what Snowden found during his employment with the NSA was illegal. His moral obligation of not complying was limited to refusing to do his job, or resigning. When he release classified information into the public form (not withstanding that some portion of it may have already been public knowledge) he crossed the line, and he himself committed an illegal act. His moral obligation was to bring the situation to the attention to the rightful authority, in this case the Congressional oversight apparatus.
- Reaction score
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His moral obligation was to bring the situation to the attention to the rightful authority, in this case the Congressional oversight apparatus.
I agree, and then if nothing figure out next steps.
George Wallace's comments on my being a "naïve leftie" etc, I can see his point of view, perhaps I am.
Taking into account reports of the reported plot out in BC on the weekend, I can see how many may feel that this serves the greater good.
After all no one was using this technology to enable plots in the 18th century when the fourth amendment came into effect.
I can understand that a constitution should be a "living" document.
I got rid of a lot of frustration when I made the post. Thanks all for your consideration.
At this point I don't think I can add more of value.
I agree, and then if nothing figure out next steps.
George Wallace's comments on my being a "naïve leftie" etc, I can see his point of view, perhaps I am.
Taking into account reports of the reported plot out in BC on the weekend, I can see how many may feel that this serves the greater good.
After all no one was using this technology to enable plots in the 18th century when the fourth amendment came into effect.
I can understand that a constitution should be a "living" document.
I got rid of a lot of frustration when I made the post. Thanks all for your consideration.
At this point I don't think I can add more of value.
- Reaction score
- 3
- Points
- 430
The other thing that Snowden is guilty of is only looking at the trees and not looking at the forest.
Yes, what he was looking at and seeing in his daily routine was questionably illegal in his opinion, but not being privy to the full picture he in no way could understand how the information being gathered was being used or the reasoning behind it.
I was watching a 2010 documentary on PBS' Frontline called WikiSecrets. It gave a detailed if somewhat dated description of the Bradley Manning affair, from his background and experiences after joining the army, how he came to the decision to gain the info and then leak it to WikiLeaks. They even looked at the relationship between Manning and Assange.
What I was struck by was the attitude that many of the "Hacker" society hold about how there really should be no secrets, and that they needed to force governments to be transparent in policies and actions. But Assange is verging on the level of a rabid dog with respect to exposing what he perceives as governments doing illegal spying on its own people, killing without justification, treating other countries with scorn and distain.
When he frst approached the NY Times, The Guardian and Der Spiegel on the Manning leaks, the three papers raised concerns about the safety of sources and innocent people named in the various dispatches who could potentially be targetd or brought to harm if the names were made public. His response was that they were involved in illegal and immoral actions, and deserved to die.
People like Assange and others involved with WikiLeaks and other similar sites don't give a rat's flying patootie about the "why". All they care about is the "what" being done by "who". Which is a very naive and dangerous view of the world to have. Snowden is just the latest member of the club. And unfortunately for him, he seems to have found himself in over his head, and people like Assange are willing to throw him an anchor. But there seems to be a kind of poetic justice to what is now playing out.
Yes, what he was looking at and seeing in his daily routine was questionably illegal in his opinion, but not being privy to the full picture he in no way could understand how the information being gathered was being used or the reasoning behind it.
I was watching a 2010 documentary on PBS' Frontline called WikiSecrets. It gave a detailed if somewhat dated description of the Bradley Manning affair, from his background and experiences after joining the army, how he came to the decision to gain the info and then leak it to WikiLeaks. They even looked at the relationship between Manning and Assange.
What I was struck by was the attitude that many of the "Hacker" society hold about how there really should be no secrets, and that they needed to force governments to be transparent in policies and actions. But Assange is verging on the level of a rabid dog with respect to exposing what he perceives as governments doing illegal spying on its own people, killing without justification, treating other countries with scorn and distain.
When he frst approached the NY Times, The Guardian and Der Spiegel on the Manning leaks, the three papers raised concerns about the safety of sources and innocent people named in the various dispatches who could potentially be targetd or brought to harm if the names were made public. His response was that they were involved in illegal and immoral actions, and deserved to die.
People like Assange and others involved with WikiLeaks and other similar sites don't give a rat's flying patootie about the "why". All they care about is the "what" being done by "who". Which is a very naive and dangerous view of the world to have. Snowden is just the latest member of the club. And unfortunately for him, he seems to have found himself in over his head, and people like Assange are willing to throw him an anchor. But there seems to be a kind of poetic justice to what is now playing out.
- Reaction score
- 33
- Points
- 560
The real issue (which people like Snowden and Assange overlook as well) is the vast sweeping up of data without just cause puts everyone at risk of persecution by the State. Since (as noted upthread) there are so many laws and regulations that the average person cannot keep track of them and probably is unknowingly breaking the law several times a day, then they can be targeted by unscrupulous agents of the State like prosecutors to further their own agendas, and can crush most opposition due to vast mismatch between the resources of the State and a private citizen.
While these technologies can be useful in assisting the Police and security serivces, there must be very strict limits placed on their use; including Judicial review and demonstration of "probable cause" to deploy such technology. If (insert agency here) believes that you or I are engaging in illegal activity, then they can apply for a warrent, demonstrate to a judge that there is probable cause to receive the warrent then go to town.
While these technologies can be useful in assisting the Police and security serivces, there must be very strict limits placed on their use; including Judicial review and demonstration of "probable cause" to deploy such technology. If (insert agency here) believes that you or I are engaging in illegal activity, then they can apply for a warrent, demonstrate to a judge that there is probable cause to receive the warrent then go to town.
- Reaction score
- 4,292
- Points
- 1,160
The problem with "judicial reviews" or "legislative reviews" is that they are, of necessity, somewhat public and some things are SECRET and secret means not public, not in any way public.
I had no problem when the Government of Canada, for example, refused to even confirm that CSEC existed. Of course many people, including journalists, knew it was there and knew, a wee bit, about what it did, but they also knew that reporting on it, using anything but journalistic veiled speech, would end their careers. I am less confident in the ability of various "oversight" bodies to keep secrets.
But, Thucydides is right - there has to be some "checks and balances,' but, by who? Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? I'm not sure - but: not a panel or committee of "outsiders?" So who are acceptable "insiders?" Parliamentarians? Judges? Very senior civil servants? Maybe one or more of those - certainly those who have sworn the oath of Privy Councillors.
I had no problem when the Government of Canada, for example, refused to even confirm that CSEC existed. Of course many people, including journalists, knew it was there and knew, a wee bit, about what it did, but they also knew that reporting on it, using anything but journalistic veiled speech, would end their careers. I am less confident in the ability of various "oversight" bodies to keep secrets.
But, Thucydides is right - there has to be some "checks and balances,' but, by who? Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? I'm not sure - but: not a panel or committee of "outsiders?" So who are acceptable "insiders?" Parliamentarians? Judges? Very senior civil servants? Maybe one or more of those - certainly those who have sworn the oath of Privy Councillors.
- Reaction score
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- 430
cupper said:
You are correct. However, it does prove a point in a way; some people are overly paranoid and think the world is out to get them.
I just find it amusing when gov't representatives tell people to have faith in these institutions and branches when folks like the Director of National Intelligence, when asked point-blank about whether information on Americans is being gathered, answers "no," then subsequently claims he "misunderstood" the question, and finally admits (months later) that his statement may have been "erroneous." Under oath before Congress, no less. It's nearly as bad as when the CIA destroyed those tapes back in '05 of people undergoing "enhanced interrogation" for fear of how they would be perceived, and then turning around and denying that anything untoward (God forbid, "torture, ") might have taken place!
One wonders at the cognitive dissonance some of these people must labour under.
One wonders at the cognitive dissonance some of these people must labour under.
It didn't make any sense to me why he applied for asylum in countries like France and Germany until I read this. I'm wondering if we should change some equipment at our embassy.
http://www.scmp.com/news/world/article/1273313/us-bugged-38-embassies-including-allies-latest-snowden-leak-indicates
US bugged 38 embassies, including allies, latest Snowden leak indicates
US intelligence services spied on at least 38 foreign embassies and missions, including those of allies, according to the latest secret documents leaked by National Security Agency whistle-blower Edward Snowden.
It collected information with bugging devices, tapped cables and specialised antennas, the documents showed.
Among the sites listed on one document as "targets" are the European Union's missions in New York and Washington.
Along with traditional ideological adversaries and sensitive Middle Eastern countries, the list of targets also includes the French, Italian and Greek embassies, as well as those of a number of other American allies, including Japan, Mexico, South Korea, India and Turkey. The list in the September 2010 document does not mention Britain or Germany.
One of the bugging methods mentioned is codenamed Dropmire, which, according to a 2007 document, is "implanted on the Cryptofax at the EU embassy, DC" - an apparent reference to a bug placed in a commercially available encrypted fax machine used at the Washington mission. The NSA documents note the machine is used to send cables back to foreign affairs ministries in European capitals.
The documents suggest the aim of the bugging exercise against the EU embassy in Washington is to gather inside knowledge of policy disagreements on global issues and other rifts between member states.
The new revelations come at a time when there is already considerable anger across the EU over earlier evidence provided by Snowden of NSA eavesdropping on America's European allies. Germany's justice minister, Sabine Leutheusser-Schnarrenberger, demanded an explanation from Washington, saying that if confirmed, US behaviour "was reminiscent of the actions of enemies during the cold war".
The German magazine Der Spiegel reported at the weekend that some of the bugging operations in Brussels targeting the EU's Justus Lipsius building - a venue for summit and ministerial meetings in the Belgian capital - were directed from within Nato headquarters nearby.
The US intelligence service codename for the bugging operation targeting the EU mission at the United Nations is "Perdido". Among the documents leaked by Snowden is a floor plan of the mission in midtown Manhattan.
http://www.scmp.com/news/world/article/1273313/us-bugged-38-embassies-including-allies-latest-snowden-leak-indicates
US bugged 38 embassies, including allies, latest Snowden leak indicates
US intelligence services spied on at least 38 foreign embassies and missions, including those of allies, according to the latest secret documents leaked by National Security Agency whistle-blower Edward Snowden.
It collected information with bugging devices, tapped cables and specialised antennas, the documents showed.
Among the sites listed on one document as "targets" are the European Union's missions in New York and Washington.
Along with traditional ideological adversaries and sensitive Middle Eastern countries, the list of targets also includes the French, Italian and Greek embassies, as well as those of a number of other American allies, including Japan, Mexico, South Korea, India and Turkey. The list in the September 2010 document does not mention Britain or Germany.
One of the bugging methods mentioned is codenamed Dropmire, which, according to a 2007 document, is "implanted on the Cryptofax at the EU embassy, DC" - an apparent reference to a bug placed in a commercially available encrypted fax machine used at the Washington mission. The NSA documents note the machine is used to send cables back to foreign affairs ministries in European capitals.
The documents suggest the aim of the bugging exercise against the EU embassy in Washington is to gather inside knowledge of policy disagreements on global issues and other rifts between member states.
The new revelations come at a time when there is already considerable anger across the EU over earlier evidence provided by Snowden of NSA eavesdropping on America's European allies. Germany's justice minister, Sabine Leutheusser-Schnarrenberger, demanded an explanation from Washington, saying that if confirmed, US behaviour "was reminiscent of the actions of enemies during the cold war".
The German magazine Der Spiegel reported at the weekend that some of the bugging operations in Brussels targeting the EU's Justus Lipsius building - a venue for summit and ministerial meetings in the Belgian capital - were directed from within Nato headquarters nearby.
The US intelligence service codename for the bugging operation targeting the EU mission at the United Nations is "Perdido". Among the documents leaked by Snowden is a floor plan of the mission in midtown Manhattan.
- Reaction score
- 1
- Points
- 430
Wow, nothing like being in a hole and reaching for a bigger shovel!
At first I didn't want to put him into the same category as the wikileaks/hackers bunch, but I guess that is where he wants to be... assuming the above article is true.
None of these persons distributing information... IT IS NOT intelligence, do not have the experience, knowledge, insight, mental capacity to rationalize what it is they are doing, let alone understand the follow effects. They are mystified by their own beliefs (not truths), and believe that they are doing good, even though they haven't a clue of the boundary, ripple or follow on effects they are causing.
Heck, the guys in charge barely have a grip on it. How the heck are these noobs going to know what they are talking about. People spends their lives tying to comprehend this stuff, how can we expect Joe citizen to rationalize it, especially whens it's parceled out in small sporadic groups of miscellaneous information.
No, I am not underestimating the public either. The age old adage that the more you know, the more you realize what you don't know, holds true here. The average citizen or potential "leaker" doesn't know crap.
Edited to add: and for the record, neither do I. I just know enough to know that I don't know!
At first I didn't want to put him into the same category as the wikileaks/hackers bunch, but I guess that is where he wants to be... assuming the above article is true.
None of these persons distributing information... IT IS NOT intelligence, do not have the experience, knowledge, insight, mental capacity to rationalize what it is they are doing, let alone understand the follow effects. They are mystified by their own beliefs (not truths), and believe that they are doing good, even though they haven't a clue of the boundary, ripple or follow on effects they are causing.
Heck, the guys in charge barely have a grip on it. How the heck are these noobs going to know what they are talking about. People spends their lives tying to comprehend this stuff, how can we expect Joe citizen to rationalize it, especially whens it's parceled out in small sporadic groups of miscellaneous information.
No, I am not underestimating the public either. The age old adage that the more you know, the more you realize what you don't know, holds true here. The average citizen or potential "leaker" doesn't know crap.
Edited to add: and for the record, neither do I. I just know enough to know that I don't know!
I think all electronic communications should be considered compromised and our embassies use pen, paper and diplomatic bags until further notice. Any locations that were inspected by American sweepers or specialist contractors need to be considered compromised as well. This was rather unexpected if true.
- Reaction score
- 18,384
- Points
- 1,360
Imagine living in a country that affords its citizens with so many rights, that its national communication act specifically does not infringe on any citizen's right to freely receive radio-frequency signals presentin the airspace above that nation's territories...
Imagine too if someone were to create a magical box that could receive those freely available signals and then send more signals, those also freely available to other citizens...
Imagine if people from that mation were to understand the implications of their sending out information into a medium that they and their fellow citizens had every right to unrestictedly receive...
Hit 'send', understand the implications...naivetay on one person's part does not necessarily make something illegal on another's part.
Caveat Emptor-electronus.
Imagine too if someone were to create a magical box that could receive those freely available signals and then send more signals, those also freely available to other citizens...
Imagine if people from that mation were to understand the implications of their sending out information into a medium that they and their fellow citizens had every right to unrestictedly receive...
Hit 'send', understand the implications...naivetay on one person's part does not necessarily make something illegal on another's part.
Caveat Emptor-electronus.
J
jollyjacktar
Guest
Seems as if someone wants Ed.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2355316/Russian-femme-fatale-Anna-Chapman-proposes-Edward-Snowden-Twitter.html
or Iceland
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2356491/Icelands-Pirate-Party-wants-offer-Edward-Snowden-citizenship.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2355316/Russian-femme-fatale-Anna-Chapman-proposes-Edward-Snowden-Twitter.html
or Iceland
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2356491/Icelands-Pirate-Party-wants-offer-Edward-Snowden-citizenship.html
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 360
jollyjacktar said:
Understatement of the year when you're talking about marriage between those two...
link
Ex-Russian spy Anna Chapman proposes marriage to Edward Snowden
The rest of the world may not want him, but NSA leaker Edward Snowden has at least one potential taker: Anna Chapman. The ex-spy tweeted yesterday, “Snowden, will you marry me?!”
The former Russian spy may have sympathy for the man who spilled top-secret documents. Chapman, after all, is no stranger to run-ins with government authorities.
The 31-year-old had been posing as a real-estate agent in the United States in 2010 when she was accused of gathering intel for Russia. She and nine others were deported back to Russia in a prisoner swap.
Now the ex-secret agent has become a celebrity in her homeland, most recently as host of the TV show, “Secrets of the World.”
Snowden may have caught Chapman’s attention since he landed at Moscow's Sheremetyevo airport to seek refuge. “@nsa will you look after our children?” She posted later.
But Snowden seems to be unavailable at the moment -- and may be rejected by Russia as well. After 11 days, the AP reports that “Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov said Russia had received no request for political asylum from Snowden and he had to solve his problems himself.”
The NSA contractor has been on the run since he spilled secrets on the classified NSA surveillance programs to the press. He has been in diplomatic limbo since having his passport revoked, and has had countless requests for asylum refused.
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 210
Well with this latest release of information, I don't think he can even pretend to be a whistle blower anymore.
- Reaction score
- 0
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- Reaction score
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- 160
Good evening all.
I have decided to do some more research on this topic and have found a subject matter expert on the topic.
Please welcome Lt. Col, Peter Schmidt formerly of the German Democratic Republic Ministry for State Security.
Me: Good evening Sir, Thank you for joining us. Please tell me what do you think of the magnitude of domestic spying in the United states under the Obgama administration?
Him: " A smile spread across his face.
“You know, for us, this would have been a dream come true,” he said, recalling the days when he was a lieutenant colonel in the defunct communist country’s secret police, the Stasi.
In those days, his department was limited to tapping 40 phones at a time, he recalled. Decide to spy on a new victim and an old one had to be dropped, because of a lack of equipment. He finds breathtaking the idea that the U.S. government receives daily reports on the cellphone usage of millions of Americans and can monitor the Internet traffic of millions more.
“So much information, on so many people,”
Me. Sir, I note that you headed one of the most infamous departments in an infamous organization. How do you fell about the American Programme?
Him: "appalled ... The dark side to gathering such a broad, seemingly untargeted, amount of information is obvious ... It is the height of naivete to think that once collected this information won’t be used ... This is the nature of secret government organizations. The only way to protect the people’s privacy is not to allow the government to collect their information in the first place.”
Me: Thank you Sir. I hope our members find your experience informative.
Me: Please welcome our extra special guest "Stefan Wolle is the curator for Berlin’s East German Museum, which focuses in part on the actions of and reactions to the Stasi. "
Me: Sir, Good evening ... what can you share with us about these matters?
Him: “When the wall fell, I wanted to see what the Stasi had on me, on the world I knew,” he said. “A large part of what I found was nothing more than office gossip, the sort of thing people used to say around the water cooler about affairs and gripes, the sort of things that people today put in emails or texts to each other.
“The lesson,” he added, “is that when a wide net is cast, almost all of what is caught is worthless. This was the case with the Stasi. This will certainly be the case with the NSA.”
Me: Thank you Sir. In ending let me add that rather than fund for-profit corporations that these funds might be better used for purposes such as ending the ongoing debacle at the VA administration, or reducing taxes or any other valid purpose.
Thank you ... I hope you had as much fun reading my little essay as I had writing it.
Source material for quotes is here reproduced under the fair use provison of the copyright act.
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2013/06/26/195045/memories-of-stasi-color-germans.html#.UdeIatxzaUl
I have decided to do some more research on this topic and have found a subject matter expert on the topic.
Please welcome Lt. Col, Peter Schmidt formerly of the German Democratic Republic Ministry for State Security.
Me: Good evening Sir, Thank you for joining us. Please tell me what do you think of the magnitude of domestic spying in the United states under the Obgama administration?
Him: " A smile spread across his face.
“You know, for us, this would have been a dream come true,” he said, recalling the days when he was a lieutenant colonel in the defunct communist country’s secret police, the Stasi.
In those days, his department was limited to tapping 40 phones at a time, he recalled. Decide to spy on a new victim and an old one had to be dropped, because of a lack of equipment. He finds breathtaking the idea that the U.S. government receives daily reports on the cellphone usage of millions of Americans and can monitor the Internet traffic of millions more.
“So much information, on so many people,”
Me. Sir, I note that you headed one of the most infamous departments in an infamous organization. How do you fell about the American Programme?
Him: "appalled ... The dark side to gathering such a broad, seemingly untargeted, amount of information is obvious ... It is the height of naivete to think that once collected this information won’t be used ... This is the nature of secret government organizations. The only way to protect the people’s privacy is not to allow the government to collect their information in the first place.”
Me: Thank you Sir. I hope our members find your experience informative.
Me: Please welcome our extra special guest "Stefan Wolle is the curator for Berlin’s East German Museum, which focuses in part on the actions of and reactions to the Stasi. "
Me: Sir, Good evening ... what can you share with us about these matters?
Him: “When the wall fell, I wanted to see what the Stasi had on me, on the world I knew,” he said. “A large part of what I found was nothing more than office gossip, the sort of thing people used to say around the water cooler about affairs and gripes, the sort of things that people today put in emails or texts to each other.
“The lesson,” he added, “is that when a wide net is cast, almost all of what is caught is worthless. This was the case with the Stasi. This will certainly be the case with the NSA.”
Me: Thank you Sir. In ending let me add that rather than fund for-profit corporations that these funds might be better used for purposes such as ending the ongoing debacle at the VA administration, or reducing taxes or any other valid purpose.
Thank you ... I hope you had as much fun reading my little essay as I had writing it.
Source material for quotes is here reproduced under the fair use provison of the copyright act.
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2013/06/26/195045/memories-of-stasi-color-germans.html#.UdeIatxzaUl
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