O'Connors 15B wishlist.....

[FredDaHead]

Sailors first with soldiering skills seems to be the order of the day for Boarding Parties is what I take from previous discussions on the subject.

Like some type of "light" Navy SEAL-type unit?

  Heck, in their spare time they could even carry the junior snotty's duffel.  ;D

Now THAT is an idea that I approve of!

 

[navymich]

Now THAT is an idea that I approve of!

You would Fred...LOL.  But the previous posts are talking about cutting down on crew as applicable, so here,let me help you carry that duffel back ashore now..... ;D

 

[Good2Golf]

Additionally, I still have the Army mentality that if you eat it, you hump it & therefore more hands make less work. Officers should be in the line humping groceries onboard and gash ashore, therefore permitting the lower decker's more time to accomplish their trade specific tasks.

+100!

Nothing irks me more then seeing the upper echelons sitting around drinking coffee and shooting the breeze, while the hands are busy with flash-up and storing ship, and then are complaining because the ship isn't ready to sail on time, or when they are sitting on their kit bags waiting to go home, while the hands are busy with post-sail and final cleaning stations and...and...and

One of the valuable lessons I as a tac aviator leanered from my Army brethren was the phrase, "one man, one kit".  If you can't at least make your self neutral to the organization, rather than a constant drain...don't be part of the team.  Heaving in to collective  benefit is something everyone should consider as a bit of professional duty...if I happen to carry a ruck, two duffles and a barrack box (and my Kerosun heater in the winter) to the field, I better have enough karibiners to snap that stuff to my person going from A to B!

Cheers
Duey

 

[Kirkhill]

First, it's more then just bosns that can be members of the boarding party.  And second, I think that OS/ABs should be concentrating on learning their way around a ship, working on OJT packages and such before they become a part of the NBP.

navymich - another example of trying to be too clever by half.  I'll remember to stay away from the trades/quals/tech/ jargon in the future.  It just demonstrates that in truth I really do know nuffink.

Fred - I would rather not have the association with SEALs.  They have specific roles at the shoreline, and have expanded from there.  Blacksuited commando SF types etc donchano.  I am just thinking about armed sailors - if you want a role model think Errol Flynn and Captain Blood, or perhaps, if you must Johnny Depp in the Caribbean  ;D

 

[navymich]

It's all good Kirkhill, you know lots, and you bring up valid points and good topic for discussion as well.  Hey, we're all here to learn. 

 

[NavyShooter]

One of the key elements in the Canadian Navy's Boarding Party setup is that they're capable of being a prize crew.

Meaning that the NBP has members of all elements required in order to sail a ship, from a BWK to electricians, to stokers, CSE types, Bosun's, etc. 

If we were to replace that with a seperate boarding party element, we'd lose that capability.

Yes, that capability has been used.

If we put a bunch of untrained OD/AB's on the boarding party, and use them exclusively for that, well, they're not experienced sailors, they're only door-kickers.  What good are they on the ship except for boardings?  They're just riders, and would barely know how to help with DC stuff, let alone sailing the ship! 

Bunks on CPF's are too limited for that kind of organizational shift.

NS

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Well said Shooter, agree 100%

 

[Kirkhill]

One of the key elements in the Canadian Navy's Boarding Party setup is that they're capable of being a prize crew.

Meaning that the NBP has members of all elements required in order to sail a ship, from a BWK to electricians, to stokers, CSE types, Bosun's, etc. 

If we were to replace that with a seperate boarding party element, we'd lose that capability.

Doesn't it take a lot of time, and a lot of money to train

a BWK to electricians, to stokers, CSE types, Bosun's, etc.

?  Aren't these the same trades you are having trouble recruiting and retaining? 
Why would you choose to fill rubber boats in rough seas with these people so that other people can use them for target practice?

Cavalier as this may seem it would seem wise to me to fill those boats with folks that are more readily available and limit the number of SMEs that you have to expose until the vessel is secured.  Once the vessel is secured then you can put your prize crew on board in relative security.

Why can't folks that are still new to the service and finding their way around be assigned husbandry and logistics tasks, and also receive damage control and hazmat training, as well as some CQB training? I have to believe that all sailors are trained to handle deck duties before they go to sea.   

From what you, and Ex-Dragoon and others have said there is still a lot of brawn necessary in the modern navy. 

As to bunks on the CPFs: I take your point.  They weren't designed to accomodate an independent boarding party.  For that matter they seem to be doing lots of things they weren't "designed" explicitly for.  However much of the discussion about new vessels like the JSS and even the Ice-Breaker/Patrol Vessels seems to indicate a tendency to larger vessels with smaller "technical" crews.  (59 ship handlers on the 6000 tonne Svalbard).  Most of the modern OPVs are being built big enough to land a Merlin but only have crews of 30 to 50.  Space on them doesn't seem to be a problem, in fact many of them include provision for "passengers".

Perhaps a larger complement of OS/Door Kickers should be considered in planning for the CPF/DDH replacements. 

Note one thing.  I am at least not arguing for a reduction in crew size.    I am arguing whether or not there is a case for a separate NBP entity or whether there is a case for additional bodies with specialized NBP training.

Cheers, all.

And Ex-Dragoon - I've "taken on board"  ('pologies for the pun)  what you have said previously about the need for extra SMEs to handle prize crews and to supply technical assistance to the NBPs.  But the army doesn't tend to send Svc Bn WOs, Eng Sgts and Sigs Ops to assault enemy positions on their own. 

 

[FSTO]

As a veteran of over 50 boardings in the Gulf I have some thoughts on your post kirkhill.

Of all the boardings that we have done in the Canadian Navy since Gulf War II, only 2 (GTS Katie and Blue Star) involved any sort of "Door Kicking" aspects to it. The rest of them have been consensual and therefore we have not needed a bunch of "expendable" OS to be used as cannon fodder to seize a ship. When we board a ship we are looking for people, contraband or gathering intelligence. We need experienced Officers and NCM's who know what to look for and how to get to the spaces quickly and safely. We also need an officer who can interact with the ships master so as to make him comfortable that his ship, crew and cargo are safe. Can you really expect a group of QL3 sailors would be able to do that? I would think we would have more casualties getting them into the RHIB.

To the Army, the way that the Navy does its business may seem very odd and you guys have alot of opinions on how we could do things better. But the Sea is a very unforgiving b***** and the people who ply their business upon the high seas keep a very wary eye on her and her many moods. This is something for the Army to remember when they get involved with the our Navy and the USN this fall.

 

[Kirkhill]

I stand corrected FSTO. 

 

[Navalsnpr]

Heck, in their spare time they could even carry the junior snotty's duffel.

Now THAT is an idea that I approve of!

One Person.... One Kit.  If you can't hump it, don't take it.......

Why can't folks that are still new to the service and finding their way around be assigned husbandry and logistics tasks, and also receive damage control and hazmat training, as well as some CQB training?

All personnel posted to a ship regardless of what element they come from are responsible to perform ships husbandry and logistical tasks, and these skill-sets are normally learned through OJT. As for DC & Hazmat training, this is formal training. 100% of the personnel posted to a ship must complete DC training, whereas the CSE department, Supply Techs and Fire Fighters receive formal training as part of their trades training.

I, as well as many others would say that Canada's Naval Boarding Parties are one of the best, if not the best "Non-Special Forces" boarding party in the world. If you have a chance to watch the Discovery Channel's "Anatomy of a Warship", you should. When the US Navy calls upon the Canadians to conduct a hostile boarding cause one of their warships can not, that speaks volumes of the ability and professionalism of our teams.

 

[Kirkhill]

Accepted Navalsniper.  Thanks for the education.

 

[Sub_Guy]

Smaller Crews :
Lets go dept by dept:

Combat; with the MOSART (you are a NESOP, NACOP and NCIOP combined until QL5) the manning requirements are reduced. NAVCOMMS, maybe reduced with elimination of the bridge signalman. (only up there for RAS or OOW Maneuvers)

NAVCOMMS can be cut back quite a bit with the elimination of the bridge signalman, our trade has changed so much over the past 10 years it isn't funny.  With HSDC access one man can run a CPF easily, you can throw a second dude to hang around and play with CCMS, but that's it!  I look at what our CPFs have for capabilities, and I look at similar navies who man ships with the same capabilities but they do it with a much smaller crew.  They can cut back on crew size for the JSS if they do it right, but there is no way it can be done to the point where we have a crew for a 3rd ship.  That (IMHO) would only work if there was always one ship minimum manned (very low readiness) but activated when one of the other ships when in for maintenance. 

 

[IN HOC SIGNO]

+100!

Nothing irks me more then seeing the upper echelons sitting around drinking coffee and shooting the breeze, while the hands are busy with flash-up and storing ship, and then are complaining because the ship isn't ready to sail on time, or when they are sitting on their kit bags waiting to go home, while the hands are busy with post-sail and final cleaning stations and...and...and

The last time I sailed....98....Storing ship, am munitioning, and humping gash were an all hands evolution...no exceptions including officers. The brow was never opened to anyone until all the cleaning and other chores were complete...have things changed? If this is so then that is very bad leadership. ???

 

[FSTO]

The last time I sailed....98....Storing ship, am munitioning, and humping gash were an all hands evolution...no exceptions including officers. The brow was never opened to anyone until all the cleaning and other chores were complete...have things changed? If this is so then that is very bad leadership. ???

Things have not changed, but there are times that the Deck Officer has to get the young'uns out of their racks and gameboys to do some real work.  ;D (because today's education system certainly doesn't instill a work ethic on anyone! :rage

 

[Navalsnpr]

I have to disagree with you FSTO. On a CPF on this coast, the pipe "Storing party to muster, Port-Breezeway" causes 99.9% of the wardroom to disappear to sudden meetings etc.  From '96 - '04 on this CPF, only the CFR Officers would ever help.

Now, 280's require the additional manpower as the groceries have to be humped a long way. The last 280 I was on, the CO & Coxn were always first in line.... That is the best example of leadership......

 

[NavyShooter]

My experience on 3 CPF's between 1996 and now bears out NavalSnipr's comments above.

The only ship I recall being different was the Gatineau. 

Occasionally, you'll see some of the wardroom helping out, and the occasional C&PO, but mostly, it's the Juniors doing the humping.

NS

 

[IN HOC SIGNO]

My experience on 3 CPF's between 1996 and now bears out NavalSnipr's comments above.

The only ship I recall being different was the Gatineau. 

Occasionally, you'll see some of the wardroom helping out, and the occasional C&PO, but mostly, it's the Juniors doing the humping.

NS

Well as I said earlier this is an example of bad leadership.
When I was a MARS officer (77-81) My XO was Ernie MOrgan...an ex Master Killick...my CO was Brian Beckett...a CFR ex P1...and I can assure you that everyone humped gash, stored ship and humped ammo...with them leading the pack.
The brow was never opened until the ship was clean and secure....maybe we need someone to take leadership seriously.
Having said that the Dept Heads do have a lot of meetings and responsibilities to attend to....junior officers...not so much.
as a Padre I have always done that stuff...just basic good manners if you ask me.

 

[FSTO]

I don't know about you folks but on every ship I have been on we all humped gash and groceries. The only ship that I didn't do it on was PROTECTEUR. She was a little different, all store are craned on and stored via fork-lift (there would be a little humping  ;D from the fork-lift to the end of the freezers which are just off the disperal area).

HODS and CHODS would be exused if they had a meeting, and other departmental personnel if there was high priority work to do. Other than that an all hands evolution means ALL HANDS.

 

[BEEFY06]

My experience on 3 CPF's between 1996 and now bears out NavalSnipr's comments above.

The only ship I recall being different was the Gatineau. 

Occasionally, you'll see some of the wardroom helping out, and the occasional C&PO, but mostly, it's the Juniors doing the humping.

NS

I think that we have all experience different situations depending on the "CO, XO,and COXN". I have sailled on all classes of ships on the west coast except for the Tanker and i have seen many different things happen. From only the MS and below humping stores and cleanning stations right to the point of the XO "loosing his mind" because there wherent any "snotters" helping out or not in the line!!!!

Plus im a firm beliver that we should bring back the "DECK FORCE" use the personal that are ashore waitting for trainning, from all trades. (The reason why i say that is cause there is allot of people wasting breath at various school's awaitting trainning) When the ship comes in have some of the BOSN'S that would be in charge and to train the DF and they would take care of "Ships Husbandry. Depending on who was my buffer, meant different amount of Man hours spent on "scrubbed ship".
Im definately intersted in seeing what is going to happen and im hopping that the Navy doesnt F@CK this up!!!!!!!!