O'Connors 15B wishlist.....

[Sub_Guy]

Clear lower decks of all ms and below to the quarter deck storing ship


is always followed by

all navcomms ccr!    :

Seriously though folks, there were a few times that I have witnessed all hands storing ship, I recall Capt(N) King having all ranks ammo the ship (IRO), which was good for morale.  But usually it is MS and Below storing, I enjoy storing ship, it eats time and you get a bit of a workout doing it, plus you get to hang with your wingers and shoot the sh*t.

But this "DECK FORCE" sounds cool, I mean who wouldn't want to be a part of that, the name alone sounds cool!  Too bad I know better, and those with little to no time don't.  I say bring back the DECK FORCE!

 

[BEEFY06]

Clear lower decks of all ms and below to the quarter deck storing ship


is always followed by

all navcomms ccr!    :

Seriously though folks, there were a few times that I have witnessed all hands storing ship, I recall Capt(N) King having all ranks ammo the ship (IRO), which was good for morale.   But usually it is MS and Below storing, I enjoy storing ship, it eats time and you get a bit of a workout doing it, plus you get to hang with your wingers and shoot the ****.

But this "DECK FORCE" sounds cool, I mean who wouldn't want to be a part of that, the name alone sounds cool!  Too bad I know better, and those with little to no time don't.  I say bring back the DECK FORCE!

SubGuy either u are supporting me or maybe some sarcasm hard to tell with compt these days, but i will go for the support...

 

[who980]

NAVCOMMS can be cut back quite a bit with the elimination of the bridge signalman, our trade has changed so much over the past 10 years it isn't funny.  With HSDC access one man can run a CPF easily, you can throw a second dude to hang around and play with CCMS, but that's it!  I look at what our CPFs have for capabilities, and I look at similar navies who man ships with the same capabilities but they do it with a much smaller crew.  They can cut back on crew size for the JSS if they do it right, but there is no way it can be done to the point where we have a crew for a 3rd ship.  That (IMHO) would only work if there was always one ship minimum manned (very low readiness) but activated when one of the other ships when in for maintenance. 

You could even give ops control of CCMS - software could be developed that would allow them to select what circuits they want up and what freq's they want.  Just have
the NET(C)'s around to trouble shoot when something goes bad.

 

[Sub_Guy]

Wow sarcasm  who980!  Beefy06, I was agreeing with you 100%

who980, seeing as we both work in the same place I am sure we will run into each other.  That being said I am sure you are well aware that with MOSART going on you can see that the future of the Navcomm and NET(c) has NOT been clearly defined yet..... But nearly all the other trades have a set plan.  That is not a coincidence.

There are things we do in our trade that are completely redundant....

TG Tac on the bridge?  Come on here, the only reason why we are up there is to record entries in the log.  It is an unsecure circut, time is wasted flipping around in a bulky book to encode and decode something that was passed through ops 10 minutes ago.
OOW maneuvers, sure they are fun, but everyone knows the MARS officers could run that show.  Hey they already run VHF, why stand beside me telling me what to say to another ship on VHF, when you can pick it up and do it your self
Flag hoist/semaphore/flashing light all look cool, the old signalman argument is that if we are ever radio silent those skills will save our butts.  They may, but I highly doubt it.  But I guess someone has to clean the bridge of Bosuns fingernails and Boogers, so lets keep the navcomm up there.


As for CCR work, when was the last time a ship strictly worked HF, they complain our skills are degrading, they may be degrading because 10 years ago there were two ways to send traffic ashore HF, SATCOM.  Now you have those plus PC to MSAX and MSGVN.  MSGVN requires no skill at all, and that is what the ships use the most.

All I am saying is that they are always screaming for navcomms on the ships, then the ships sail and half the department does nothing.  We can definitely cut back.

 

[who980]

Wow sarcasm  who980!  Beefy06, I was agreeing with you 100%

who980, seeing as we both work in the same place I am sure we will run into each other.  That being said I am sure you are well aware that with MOSART going on you can see that the future of the Navcomm and NET(c) has NOT been clearly defined yet..... But nearly all the other trades have a set plan.  That is not a coincidence.

Im sure we will!  I am on Orange watch.  Yourself?

There is always talk of this -- around the ships and what not, and I agree with the fact that our trade is highly technical and going to get more so as the months
pass.  However, I am often wondering about what the result of such an amalgamation would entail.  I wont have to explain to you the troubles that some old
signalmen have aquainting themselves to the radio world and vice versa after the first amalgamation.  Though for the radio guys I beleive that a Navcomm/NET(C) amalgamation would be an easy transition and especially easy for most personnel who joined as strictly 277 NavComms.  We have some exceptionally smart people
in our trade.

There are things we do in our trade that are completely redundant....

TG Tac on the bridge?  Come on here, the only reason why we are up there is to record entries in the log.  It is an unsecure circut, time is wasted flipping around in a bulky book to encode and decode something that was passed through ops 10 minutes ago.
OOW maneuvers, sure they are fun, but everyone knows the MARS officers could run that show.  Hey they already run VHF, why stand beside me telling me what to say to another ship on VHF, when you can pick it up and do it your self
Flag hoist/semaphore/flashing light all look cool, the old signalman argument is that if we are ever radio silent those skills will save our butts.  They may, but I highly doubt it.  But I guess someone has to clean the bridge of Bosuns fingernails and Boogers, so lets keep the navcomm up there.

With the state of sea warfare these days, I fully agree with that as well.  With the advent of GCCS, Link11, HSDC Based Information (Sametime Chat, Email, Web Documents),
the battle these days focuses on information.  With all the tools the ops room has to build its RMP and conduct warfare, passing a tactical signal almost seems laughable. 

Here is a real world example of Nav Comm redundancy on the bridge.  I am not sure if you know of a system called AIS (Automatic Indentification System), but during my last 6 month deployment which was the last one the Winnipeg did - we had this system on the bridge.  Its a civillian system meant as a tool for navigation - basically most if not every large sea-going vessel has this onboard and it sends out a signal so all the vessels within a certain range can get that vessels details (name, course, speed, last port, next port, mmo number etc). Basically, with all this information now it has rendered hailing a ship pretty much useless.  Needless to say I spent a 23 day patrol on the bridge, on the mids sitting on my *** with my junior hand - you probably know what 23 days of pure boredom can do for morale.
[/quote]

As for CCR work, when was the last time a ship strictly worked HF, they complain our skills are degrading, they may be degrading because 10 years ago there were two ways to send traffic ashore HF, SATCOM.  Now you have those plus PC to MSAX and MSGVN.  MSGVN requires no skill at all, and that is what the ships use the most.

All I am saying is that they are always screaming for navcomms on the ships, then the ships sail and half the department does nothing.  We can definitely cut back.

MSGVN is a great tool for the Nav Comm trade - however - the way they've implemented it I agree has caused operator skills to slide a bit. 

Just my .2

Ryan

 

[navymich]

Interesting stuff here, regarding NavComms, but getting a bit off topic.  Mods, suggest we move some of the recent stuff here somewhere else...maybe the "naval communicator jobs" thread?

 

[who980]

The biggest hurdle is ships husbandry. I know that everyone hates cleaning stations but wait until you are living in a dirty ship. You'll change your tune very quick.

Have the junior officers pitch in.

Ryan

 

[Sub_Guy]

Cleaning stations isn't even mentioned when they are looking at crewing requirements, it isn't mentioned in the JSS docs located on the PMO website.  I agree have the junior officers pitch in, nothing against officers but I find Naval officers to be somewhat out of touch with the lower deckers.  At least Army officers are with their men, Army officers look out for their men, and the men take care of their officers.  I wish I could say the same about our non-dolphin wearing officers.

 

[FSTO]

Have the junior officers pitch in.

Ryan

Since a junior officer is Lt(N) and below I take that you expect everybody in the wardroom except the XO to do cleaning stations. Do you expect that all MS and above save the Coxn do cleaning stations? I'm just asking.

Quote from Sub_Guy
Cleaning stations isn't even mentioned when they are looking at crewing requirements, it isn't mentioned in the JSS docs located on the PMO website.  I agree have the junior officers pitch in, nothing against officers but I find Naval officers to be somewhat out of touch with the lower deckers.  At least Army officers are with their men, Army officers look out for their men, and the men take care of their officers.  I wish I could say the same about our non-dolphin wearing officers.

I am a product of 4 Sq MARS II where we were under the thumb of the CBM for what it seemed to be an eternity  :crybaby:. So I have an inkling of what cleaning stations is all about. Also when I am onboard I clean up after myself and do my part to ensure that my personal space is clean.
As for the comment of not looking out for our men, what do you exactly mean by this? I wish I had a dollar for each time that I was called to the XO's cabin to explain why one of my guys screwed up, or the amount of times that I deflected crap away from my department or the more desirable punishment given by the CHOD instead of the OS/AB/LS going in-front of the XO without his cap.
Unlike the Army we do not live in the same spaces as the hands and you know as well as me that we have a different culture than the army. But to say that we as Naval officers do not look out for our men is wrong-headed and mis-informed.

 

[navymich]

I am a product of 4 Sq MARS II where we were under the thumb of the CBM for what it seemed to be an eternity 

One of the (few) things I looked forward to, and I know my department does now too, is the arrival of the Mars IV students onboard.  It is actually in their joining instructions if they come to our ship that they SHALL conduct cleaning stations in the wardroom and on the bridge.  Smiles all around in giving up polishing brass for 10 weeks, that's for sure.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Have the junior officers pitch in.

Just as soon as you take a share of my PERs, PDRs, SOCDs, UCRs, Tacnote revisions,... are you getting the point?  No one is standing around doing nothing on a warship.  Just because I'm not pushing a broom, does not mean I'm not busy.  And for the record, me and rest of the aircrew have done cleaning stations on occasion, particularily when COs rounds are coming, or when all of the techs are on the helo changing an engine.

As for the Air Department being "over-manned" (FSTO take note),  We are a "one-in-one" watch rotation.  Our watch typically lasts 12 hours, but can be as long as 14 hours.  If you think that we are over-manned, pop up to the hangar (it's the square thing at the back of the ship  ) during an engine change, or a rotor change, or when the helo is being washed.  See just how "over-manned" we are.

 

[Inch]

Additionally, I still have the Army mentality that if you eat it, you hump it & therefore more hands make less work. Officers should be in the line humping groceries onboard and gash ashore, therefore permitting the lower decker's more time to accomplish their trade specific tasks.

+100!

Nothing irks me more then seeing the upper echelons sitting around drinking coffee and shooting the breeze, while the hands are busy with flash-up and storing ship, and then are complaining because the ship isn't ready to sail on time, or when they are sitting on their kit bags waiting to go home, while the hands are busy with post-sail and final cleaning stations and...and...and

I'm not sure what ships you're sailing on but I have yet to sail and not land gash or store ship.

 

[IN HOC SIGNO]

Just as soon as you take a share of my PERs, PDRs, SOCDs, UCRs, Tacnote revisions,... are you getting the point?  No one is standing around doing nothing on a warship.  Just because I'm not pushing a broom, does not mean I'm not busy.  And for the record, me and rest of the aircrew have done cleaning stations on occasion, particularily when COs rounds are coming, or when all of the techs are on the helo changing an engine.

As for the Air Department being "over-manned" (FSTO take note),  We are a "one-in-one" watch rotation.  Our watch typically lasts 12 hours, but can be as long as 14 hours.  If you think that we are over-manned, pop up to the hangar (it's the square thing at the back of the ship  ) during an engine change, or a rotor change, or when the helo is being washed.  See just how "over-manned" we are.

I wondered when someone was going to bring this up. there is sometimes an assumption that officers and senior NCOs don't do any real work because they don't get their hands dirty.
My observations over the last 29 years is there is a lot of work that officers and Sr NCOs do that is almost invisible to the lower deck but without it there would be chaos onboard. I once had to bunk in with the Supply Officer due to shortage of bunks (Padre bunks in where he can-when I stayed in a Mess Deck I did cleaning stations with my mess mates). SO used to get up at 0300 every day to get a handle on his paperwork. the demands of the Captain on his time were unbelievable. He had responsibility for one of the largest divisions on ship and was the one most likely to get court martialed if things went wrong in the finance world. He was rarely in his rack much before midnight. Do you suggest that he should be doing cleaning stations too? He was a Lt(N). What about the engineer? Wpns O...well you get my point...they have different responsibilities than junior ratings...but they have a lot of work to do.
A civilian company does not pay the CEO or the executives to scrub the deck.

 

[FSTO]

Just as soon as you take a share of my PERs, PDRs, SOCDs, UCRs, Tacnote revisions,... are you getting the point?  No one is standing around doing nothing on a warship.  Just because I'm not pushing a broom, does not mean I'm not busy.  And for the record, me and rest of the aircrew have done cleaning stations on occasion, particularily when COs rounds are coming, or when all of the techs are on the helo changing an engine.

As for the Air Department being "over-manned" (FSTO take note),  We are a "one-in-one" watch rotation.  Our watch typically lasts 12 hours, but can be as long as 14 hours.  If you think that we are over-manned, pop up to the hangar (it's the square thing at the back of the ship  ) during an engine change, or a rotor change, or when the helo is being washed.  See just how "over-manned" we are.

Seaking Tacco, take note of the grin!
Air: The Air Force is always overmanned for everything  Grin

 

[Sub_Guy]

I'm not sure what ships you're sailing on but I have yet to sail and not land gash or store ship.

Air Force right? (that's a good thing)  Forgive me but I find (minority) some (not all) naval officers to be a tad snotty, like they are better than the rest of us. IMHO I find that it is somewhat isolated to the Navy.  For instance look at accommodations both in ESQ and HAL, it is pretty easy to spot where the Officers live, now I lived in Petawawa for years and it is pretty difficult to spot which building houses the officers.  The new wardroom in Esq is an amazing building with a beautiful view, as well as the one in Halifax (both needed new wardrooms, Halifax really needed a new CPO's mess).  Nelles block/A block aren't in the best of shape and sure there are talks of building new accommodations, but when is that going to happen?  I also know that your average officer has nothing to do with this, but it can create some sort of I am better than you attitude.  One can afford to have that attitude in the navy, in the army I don't think that would go over so well.  The air force I have no idea what you guys have going on, but it works, you have respect going both ways up and down the ladder  (your depend on each other to come home safely).  Somewhat like the submarine.

I never want to see an officer doing cleaning stations, that is not their job, that is time for the junior ncms to clean and bitch/talk amongst each other, and the last thing we would want is an officer right beside them.  IMHO cleaning stations would run smoother, if for once there isn't Sh*t caked on the toilets in the CPO's heads, officer heads aren't that bad, but come on man use that brush.  Everyone who has cleaned the heads will know what I am talking about.  Hopefully new toilet brushes are a part of the 15B wishlist

Ok in my original post I chose my words poorly.  What I meant to say is that the navy could use some of the Army attitude when it comes to ship evolutions (storing, landing gash).  I agree with navalsniper you eat it, you hump it.  I know that there isn't enough room for the entire ship to store, but those who have free time should be doing just that.  I know that everyone has a job to do, but if all available hands pitched in it would go much faster.  Before the Alg departed for RIMPAC they piped storing ship (MS and Below) 11 people showed up...Unsat.  If there is a storing line going on and you have to walk through it to go somewhere carry something with you.

 

[FSTO]

Juno Block in Halifax is a combined C&PO's Mess and Wardroom.

 

[IN HOC SIGNO]

Juno Block in Halifax is a combined C&PO's Mess and Wardroom.

Yes and a little background is in order too. In Victoria the Wardroom was a an old hospital ward with an Annex, nicknamed the barn. they built a beautiful Jr Ranks club in the mid 70s that was the envy of the system...right on the water with a gorgeous view etc. The officers lanquished in the barn for another 25 years because it was thought to be "bad optics" to build a new officers mess.
The Wardroom in Halifax was a disgrace. I stayed in there in 99 for a week....besides the paint peeling off the walls and mould all over the place there was no heat.....next door my winger had too much heat...so he slept on top of the bed in his skivies with the windows open (Feb) and I slept under all of his blankets and mine in my room.
The only way they could get over the "bad optics" there was to build it as a combined mess with the C & POs.
I agree that the snotty thing can become a problem. There is a division on ships between the officers and lower deck that is hung over from the old RN trained Navy. I'm not sure how you get over it though because I've found that the attitude is entrenched not just in the Wardroom but in the Main Cave too. I can remember as a Padre relaxing in the cave and chatting with some ABs and a Master Seaman telling me I wasn't welcome cause I was an officer....the PMC sorted him out as to the fact that the Padre is "usually" welcome in all messes....but the attitude against officers and NCMs mingling there was just as strong as it was in the Wardroom.

 

[FSTO]

In my time the Wardroom Annex in Esquimalt was called the "Crack House".

 

[Sub_Guy]

I couldn't agree more with that attitude going both ways.  In the main cave you are correct, there are guys who even get bent out of shape when they see a PO in there (for whatever reason).  The toolbox that told the padre he wasn't welcome should have been squared off right away, its a good thing he was. 
I also agree with the building of the two wardrooms, they were needed on both coasts for sure.  IHMO I think they did it the right way in Halifax building a combined building, they probably saved some money, and pick up a 2 for 1 in the process.  I have no idea what the CPO's mess is like here in ESQ, but the exterior of the building (and location) look decent.  The CPO's mess in Halifax was in a bad location and that building was run down.

You know there are guys who think that when we have a mess meeting on ship, that when the supply officer is present that he/she is there as some sort of spy for the old man!  I mean really folks lets get real here.  (She was there for a few meetings discussing financial stuff and all that jazz) I thought the world was going to come to an end.

 

[IN HOC SIGNO]

I couldn't agree more with that attitude going both ways.  In the main cave you are correct, there are guys who even get bent out of shape when they see a PO in there (for whatever reason).  The toolbox that told the padre he wasn't welcome should have been squared off right away, its a good thing he was. 
I also agree with the building of the two wardrooms, they were needed on both coasts for sure.  IHMO I think they did it the right way in Halifax building a combined building, they probably saved some money, and pick up a 2 for 1 in the process.  I have no idea what the CPO's mess is like here in ESQ, but the exterior of the building (and location) look decent.  The CPO's mess in Halifax was in a bad location and that building was run down.

You know there are guys who think that when we have a mess meeting on ship, that when the supply officer is present that he/she is there as some sort of spy for the old man!  I mean really folks lets get real here.  (She was there for a few meetings discussing financial stuff and all that jazz) I thought the world was going to come to an end.

Hee Hee...yup I hear you. the C & POs Mess in Esq is absolutely gorgeous! They have all the facilities including conference rooms. When they built the new Officers Mess they didn't include conference rooms which seemed silly to me. The first conference I ran out there we had to go to the Chiefs Mess for our meetings and then back up the hill for growlies and wets.

Now with all this work done it is time to look at the Fleet Clubs again. I think the one in Halifax is overdue for a facelift or a new facility. The one in Esq probably needs renovating too. If all of this fosters more mess life and therefore Esprit de Corps it can't be a bad thing. Thus tieing it back to the thread...more money for the military and our QOL ;D