Office Production Paths - CFR or Bust?

[dimsum]

I'll coincide defeat and walk back my statements about being NCMs first - there's too many points on why it's not a good idea/supportable.

Hey, one of the aspects of maturity is knowing when you’re wrong and owning up to it. You proposed something, others have reasons why it doesn’t work, and you reassessed based on it. That’s fair.

At first glance, the idea that one should know the organization from the bottom up doesn’t seem like a bad thing. It’s really in the nuts and bolts of “how to do it” that everything falls apart.

 

[dapaterson]

We're Material Management Techs now

You know me too well lol.

You're supposed to be a crusty old chief insisting nothing ever change. How dare you accept the trade being renamed!

 

[daftandbarmy]

Hey, one of the aspects of maturity is knowing when you’re wrong and owning up to it. You proposed something, others have reasons why it doesn’t work, and you reassessed based on it. That’s fair.

At first glance, the idea that one should know the organization from the bottom up doesn’t seem like a bad thing. It’s really in the nuts and bolts of “how to do it” that everything falls apart.

What we probably do need though is, instead of leaving it up to chance or personal preference, a more formal program designed to identify promising Officer candidates from the NCM ranks and coaching them through the process to apply.

Without that, alot of good candidates wouldn't naturally be inclined to apply on their own.

 

[dapaterson]

What we probably do need though is, instead of leaving it up to chance or personal preference, a more formal program designed to identify promising Officer candidates from the NCM ranks and coaching them through the process to apply.

Without that, alot of good candidates wouldn't naturally be inclined to apply on their own.

Except... does the CAF really need a cadre of officers who won't take the initiative?

 

[Halifax Tar]

You're supposed to be a crusty old chief insisting nothing ever change. How dare you accept the trade being renamed!

lol I refer to myself as Chief Storesman or as a Naval Storesman normally.

Again, you know me too well lol

 

[Navy_Pete]

What we probably do need though is, instead of leaving it up to chance or personal preference, a more formal program designed to identify promising Officer candidates from the NCM ranks and coaching them through the process to apply.

Without that, alot of good candidates wouldn't naturally be inclined to apply on their own.

I've got to be honest, I can't think of anyone that indicated they were interested in the CFR or UTPNCM program not getting CoC support. Not everyone went through with it, but like @dapaterson said, I think the individual working through some of that is a good indicator they are a good fit.
Have also recommended to a few people they consider it, and helped them look into it (and tried to include it on PERs when they were applying for it as a recommendation).

Do we actually need a formal program, above and beyond the existing PAR process and divisional process? We are supposed to be looking at someone's performance and potential a couple of times a year (at least) with a formal assessment every April. I feel sometimes we are so constrained by formal programs we stop doing routine things like mentoring etc informally. Maybe not overtasking everyone to the nth degree so they have time for basic things like that would help as well. Lot easier to take time to mentor and guide people when you aren't panicking to meet insane schedule demands without resources or support.

 

[Furniture]

Except... does the CAF really need a cadre of officers who won't take the initiative?

While I get where you are coming from, there is the flip side. How much of the problem with career management/HR is down to the prevalence of this attitude throughout the CAF? i.e. "If you wanted to know your entitlements, you should have looked for them."

Maybe the CAF should look at modernizing how we manage personnel, including(but not limited to) doing internal "headhunting" for talent that is already in the system. No it won't pull all of the best NCMs out of the NCM world, but it might be the difference between a good NCM deciding they need a change and leaving, and deciding to try a new path. Yes it can be done now, but why fight the system as it exists when you can more easily go elsewhere?

 

[dimsum]

While I get where you are coming from, there is the flip side. How much of the problem with career management/HR is down to the prevalence of this attitude throughout the CAF? i.e. "If you wanted to know your entitlements, you should have looked for them."

Maybe the CAF should look at modernizing how we manage personnel, including(but not limited to) doing internal "headhunting" for talent that is already in the system. No it won't pull all of the best NCMs out of the NCM world, but it might be the difference between a good NCM deciding they need a change and leaving, and deciding to try a new path. Yes it can be done now, but why fight the system as it exists when you can more easily go elsewhere?

I would argue that for all its toxicity and faults, CAF Reddit somewhat does that.

Member posts that they’re sick of their trade and looking to get out. Some folks cheer them on, but some folks suggest UTP, VOT, etc. I’ve seen a few instances where the member takes a look at VOT options.

 

[dapaterson]

I think the internet is where nuance goes to die

Agreed that we need better information available to inform people of available options.

 

[Furniture]

I think the internet is where nuance goes to die

Agreed that we need better information available to inform people of available options.

Fair point, and to ad some depth to what I posted earlier. I did not mean to imply you were the/part of the problem, more that we as an institution tend to fall back on "take some initiative", "if you wanted it you'd look into it" too often.

 

[dapaterson]

Fair point, and to ad some depth to what I posted earlier. I did not mean to imply you were the/part of the problem, more that we as an institution tend to fall back on "take some initiative", "if you wanted it you'd look into it" too often.

I didn't take it personally; i took it as "I need to take the initiative to clarify what I meant "

 

[OldSolduer]

OK so here is my opinion:

Certain officer classifications I could care less if they have a degree. Certain classifications don't need them.

I'd like Naval officers - some - to have a degree in Engineering or whatever. Same with RCAF - Aeronautics or something relevant.

Finance - hell yes.

 

[daftandbarmy]

OK so here is my opinion:

Certain officer classifications I could care less if they have a degree. Certain classifications don't need them.

I'd like Naval officers - some - to have a degree in Engineering or whatever. Same with RCAF - Aeronautics or something relevant.

Finance - hell yes.

Personally, I'd love to see more accountants leading Combat Team Attacks

 

[dimsum]

I'd like Naval officers - some - to have a degree in Engineering or whatever. Same with RCAF - Aeronautics or something relevant.

If you’re talking about Naval Engineers (Marine Systems Eng or Combat Systems Eng) and Aerospace Engineers, yes.

Naval Warfare Officers, Pilots, ACSOs, and Aerospace Controllers definitely don’t need an engineering background because they are the “operators”. It’s kind of like saying that everyone who drives a car has to also be a certified mechanic.

Would it help? Maybe. Does it need to happen? Probably not.

The training pipeline and experience gives them a decently good background already.

Finance - hell yes.

I don’t know a lot about what qualifications / currencies / equivalencies our Fin folks have compared to their civilian counterparts, but yeah I’d hope there was some very in-depth training when dealing with large sums of money.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Yeah, CFRs are definitely suspect … wait, what’s this?

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=pfbid02m681xyhF7HcbB8BmSKoiV69ASt5fPKxsSkKncy9ytBStppmhnF2JWYKwFQLgf5z3l&id=100064033867272

 

[Eaglelord17]

If we can break some of the degree related parochialism in the CAF that would b a feature, not a bug. Other than professionals (lawyers, dentists, nurses, MDs) most CAF occupations should be trained by the CAF, not by universities, in their military occupation.

The intent from 1997 was to have broad based liberal arts education to build an officer corps capable of abstract thought and of dealing in uncertainty.

Thats also because they assume degrees would always retain their quality and value. Fast forward 27 years and most degrees aren’t worth the piece of paper they are on.

As to the idea of a 1 year ‘test phase’ as a NCM it won’t prove much unless they are a complete waste of time (which will be obvious in officer training as well).

Civvy side basically all management for trades related positions (planners and supervisors) is pulled from people with tickets in those trades. Those are people with 4+ years experience and generally management tends to try and pull the best of the trade into those positions. The result is a mixed bag. They maybe competent in their trade itself but might make terrible planners or supervisors.

Conversely I have seen absolutely terrible tradespeople become excellent planners or supervisors because the skills that make someone excellent at those jobs aren’t the same as what makes them good on the floor.

The CAF has issues understanding that concept, we automatically assume because someone is a rockstar at the Pte/Cpl level they will be a rockstar at the Sgt/WO level when the skills required can be very different.

 

[Halifax Tar]

What about 1 rank system?

Get rid of officers and NCMs and just make it all one path. With some off shoots for specialization.

Star Trek... I know...

 

[Lumber]

What about 1 rank system?

Get rid of officers and NCMs and just make it all one path. With some off shoots for specialization.

Star Trek... I know...

Before I joined the Navy, I asked a former ship CO why the CO's of ships were "Commanders" in rank and not "Captain (Navy)". He said that we need our COs to have some youth and vigour to them. If you waited until someone was a Captain to make them a Captain, they'd be old and less enthusiastic.

While that's not entirely true, the sentiment remains true. If you had to go all the way through NCM ranks before getting to leadership ranks, you wouldn't Get a CO tour until you were in your 50s.

 

[dimsum]

What about 1 rank system?

Get rid of officers and NCMs and just make it all one path. With some off shoots for specialization.

Star Trek... I know...

Trekkie fedora on

Actually…

Star Trek does have NCM ranks. They just don’t show up in most episodes. There are Crewmen (mostly in Enterprise) and Chief Petty Officers (like O’Brien).

Star Trek has a rank structure that would make the CAF seem bottom heavy.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Trekkie fedora on

Actually…

Star Trek does have NCM ranks. They just don’t show up in most episodes. There are Crewmen (mostly in Enterprise) and Chief Petty Officers (like O’Brien).

Star Trek has a rank structure that would make the CAF seem bottom heavy.

I appreciate that. I didn't know that.

I'm not a Trekkie lol