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Officers to the front of the line at clothing?

captloadie

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ballz said:
Yes there is... a junior officer is probably 10x busier. If you dont believe me just check the parking lots at 4pm.

I'm going to call BS on this. My experience has been that the CO's put in more time than anyone in the unit. It may not be sitting at a desk doing paperwork, but they are pulled in every direction have demands on their time well outside the 0730-1600 window.

 
 

Ayrsayle

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captloadie said:
I'm going to call BS on this. My experience has been that the CO's put in more time than anyone in the unit. It may not be sitting at a desk doing paperwork, but they are pulled in every direction have demands on their time well outside the 0730-1600 window.

From my (albeit limited) experience, this is very true.  They may spend less time tied to their desk, but just because you can't see a senior officer/NCO working doesn't mean its not occurring.  I'm often impressed at the sheer amount of work my current CO does from home long after all of us have called it a day.

But back to the original question (and my very reductionist argument):
   
Generally, the more senior the member, the more responsibilities and demands on their time.  The "first come first serve" concept works to keep everyone happy that they are being treated equal but while the individuals being served may be, the functions they are performing (again, in general) are not.  If appointments were not entertained, I can't see the problem with having preferential service to those who likely need it.  A Pte going on tour tomorrow needs service faster then a Major getting ready for his next exercise, etc.

I suppose the problem lies in the fact that while senior members may have need to make use of preferential treatment, a smart senior member would also know when to use that preferential treatment and refuse to use it when he doesn't have a genuine need.  Problem is, every time it is used - someone is going to complain it is unfair (regardless of the circumstances - heck, most people don't even know them and make an assumption solely on their own inconvenience).

So..... first come first serve?  Or accept a system that is not designed to be "fair" but rather to be efficient in taking care of the whole, even if it is very inefficient for specific individuals.
 

ballz

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captloadie said:
I'm going to call BS on this.

Cool.

captloadie said:
My experience has been that the CO's put in more time than anyone in the unit.

Then they're doing it wrong.

captloadie said:
It may not be sitting at a desk doing paperwork, but they are pulled in every direction have demands on their time well outside the 0730-1600 window.

The CO rarely gets called after work hours to make any decisions or do anything. It's usually an "FYI, here is what happened. Here is what we are doing about it." Note who's actually doing the work and solving the problem. The CO has staff and subordinates for a reason. He only has to do "work" if a chain of MWOs, senior Captains, and Majors can't figure it out.

It may hurt people in the feels to dare suggest that the CO isn't the busiest person in the building, but it is very much the truth. As for the RSM, I'll have that fight with anyone that wants to suggest the RSM does more work than a Pl Comd or most other junior officers in the building.
 

OldSolduer

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Here's the thing - we are a military organization....right?

So if the Base Log O orders that LCols and CWOs are to go to the front of the line ups at Clothing Stores, that's a freakin order. Obey it and stop complaining.

We're a military, not some kind of Communist "every body is equal" organization.
Just my opinion.

A lot of you have made very good points for and against. Bottom line is that COs and RSMs may not have time to stand in a line up and wait.
 

daftandbarmy

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Hamish Seggie said:
Here's the thing - we are a military organization....right?

So if the Base Log O orders that LCols and CWOs are to go to the front of the line ups at Clothing Stores, that's a freakin order. Obey it and stop complaining.

We're a military, not some kind of Communist "every body is equal" organization.
Just my opinion.

A lot of you have made very good points for and against. Bottom line is that COs and RSMs may not have time to stand in a line up and wait.

That's some mighty tough talk coming from a flat faced civvy :)
 

dimsum

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ballz said:
Cool.

Then they're doing it wrong.

The CO rarely gets called after work hours to make any decisions or do anything. It's usually an "FYI, here is what happened. Here is what we are doing about it." Note who's actually doing the work and solving the problem. The CO has staff and subordinates for a reason. He only has to do "work" if a chain of MWOs, senior Captains, and Majors can't figure it out.

It may hurt people in the feels to dare suggest that the CO isn't the busiest person in the building, but it is very much the truth. As for the RSM, I'll have that fight with anyone that wants to suggest the RSM does more work than a Pl Comd or most other junior officers in the building.

I'll disagree.  At the few units I've been to, the CO's car is always there when the others show up and always there when we leave.  Sure, he isn't deploying or flying to the extent we are, but I've tried tracking him down for whatever reason on several occasions and he's constantly on meetings, etc. 
 

medicineman

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One problem with CO's in units (especially busy units) is that they are at the whims of their BlackBerries, especially if they have overbearing Commanders.  I've had previous CO's much like Dimsum's - they're constantly updating this that or something else, in meetings, and dealing with their higher ups.  I had one CO that pretty much had to have our Group Commander personally hand him the BlackBerry because he knew what would happen - the Col in question didn't care about anyone but himself, so was sending emails at all hours that he expected prompt returns on...and by prompt I mean within half hour to forty-five minutes, even at zero dark WTF.  That electronic leash is a heavy burden sometimes...so if your CO isn't around when you are still, could very well be that they're somewhere else, but either dealing directly with THEIR boss or glued to the little screen, while simultaneously dealing with their domestic boss...and God forbid if they're a Reserve unit CO - having to balance real job(s), part-time job, family job, etc...all on some Reg Force Commander's schedule.

MM
 

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Hamish Seggie said:
A lot of you have made very good points for and against. Bottom line is that COs and RSMs may not have time to stand in a line up and wait.

I don't think very many people would have an issue with the CO/RSM jumping the line, its done on helpdesks as that person may not have 45 minutes to wait on hold to reset a password. COs/RSMs should be able to make an appt with the Clothing Supervisor and get in/out quickly.

That being said, a blanket policy of ALL officers get to jump the line smacks of the class BS that the British Army had/has. I have significantly more important things to do in my day as a Snr NCO, than some OJT OCdt or 2Lt. Other than Comd Appts, rank should have no bearing on the timeliness/level of service except in those extreme cases.
 

tomahawk6

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There should be a separate area for officers and senior NCO's or a set time of day.
 

kratz

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tomahawk6 said:
There should be a separate area for officers and senior NCO's or a set time of day.

Nice idea, but often impractical or nearly impossible in most Canadian situations for customer service.
 

Jarnhamar

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[quote author=ballz]

It may hurt people in the feels to dare suggest that the CO isn't the busiest person in the building, but it is very much the truth. As for the RSM, I'll have that fight with anyone that wants to suggest the RSM does more work than a Pl Comd or most other junior officers in the building.
[/quote]

Devils advocate:  if junior officers are so busy would you say they should go through the meal lines first in order to get back to work sooner?
 

ballz

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Jarnhamar said:
Devils advocate:  if junior officers are so busy would you say they should go through the meal lines first in order to get back to work sooner?

Ahead of the CO, yes. You seem to be interpreting that I am advocating that officers should go to the front of the line at clothing, which I did not explicitly say nor am I in one camp or another on this issue. I was merely replying to your remark that the CO/RSM is busier than "a junior officer." I would argue that a junior officer (and we'll make this easier, most Sergeants to Warrant Officer as well) are much busier than the CO/RSM. Like I said, check the parking lot, it's a real easy indicator. Another good indicator is the amount of mandatory golf days, PD days, coffee breaks, and other random "time-fillers" that get pumped out of the short hallway when the rest of us don't need anymore time-fillers. Perhaps my unit is back-assward from yours, it would not surprise me, I've been saying we are the back-assward ones for 4 years.

Now, to answer your question, I am not sure in what context you mean. If it's in the field, then no, because if there is a shortage then its the highest ranks that go without (and yes, that means Privates eat before MCpls, MCpls before Warrant Officers, and then officers, and the CO ought to be eating last). The troops are also the ones doing the physical labour and need the food. And it's just a leadership issue. Plus, the field is a lot less hectic than garrison and everything comes to a stop at meal time. However, I have had instances where I was busy and I just kept writing orders or preparing supporting plans and my signaller brought me a plate of food, which is no different than what I said earlier about the CO's tac-section going and exchanging a piece of kit for him or the Course 2IC getting his storesmen to clear me into the base while I continued to work.

If it's garrison, its a bit of a red herring. We do have two separate lines/eating areas. If we didn't, and I ate at the mess, I'd be showing up at the very start or the very end of lunch when the lines are shortest. For real time purposes (aka to stop speaking hypothetical here), when I don't bring a lunch to work on occassion, I go for lunch at 1300 when the lines at all the local eateries are non-existent.
 

Lumber

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I can confirm; on ship,  MARS subbies are the busiest most overworked bunch aboard,  and God bless them.

Edit: however,  the CO sleeps less than anyone else on board,  by a long shot.  A HUGE long shot.
 

daftandbarmy

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Jarnhamar said:
Devils advocate:  if junior officers are so busy would you say they should go through the meal lines first in order to get back to work sooner?

If they are the Duty Officer they should eat first in case the cook needs to be thrown in jail for trying to kill the troops (if he/she survives first contact with the grub, that is :) ).

And yes, I have done that before and it was well deserved.
 

Jarnhamar

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ballz said:
Ahead of the CO, yes. You seem to be interpreting that I am advocating that officers should go to the front of the line at clothing, which I did not explicitly say nor am I in one camp or another on this issue. I was merely replying to your remark that the CO/RSM is busier than "a junior officer." I would argue that a junior officer (and we'll make this easier, most Sergeants to Warrant Officer as well) are much busier than the CO/RSM. Like I said, check the parking lot, it's a real easy indicator. Another good indicator is the amount of mandatory golf days, PD days, coffee breaks, and other random "time-fillers" that get pumped out of the short hallway when the rest of us don't need anymore time-fillers. Perhaps my unit is back-assward from yours, it would not surprise me, I've been saying we are the back-assward ones for 4 years.
Way to checkmate my devils advocate ;)
I'll conceded maybe those junior officers are in fact busier than the CO ( you know,  when they're not swipping right and debating PoF)  but maybe that's a whole different debate. 
When it comes to how busy someones job is against line up privileges  I think it's really negated by the fact that leaders can just decide to go get shit exchanged when its convenient,  troops need permission and are often given timings to meet. 

Now, to answer your question, I am not sure in what context you mean. If it's in the field, then no, because if there is a shortage then its the highest ranks that go without (and yes, that means Privates eat before MCpls, MCpls before Warrant Officers, and then officers, and the CO ought to be eating last). The troops are also the ones doing the physical labour and need the food.
(going off track a bit) It's an argument  I usually pitch to students but you can  make a strong academic argument that leaders should eat first. It's more detrimental to the mission if section commanders are weak and all messed up from lack of food than if riflemen #4 is.  If a company commander is all messed up from not getting enough water and food he or she will make more disastrous decisions than a corporal. 

That would of course kill morale and causes annamosity which IMO is the issue with a blanket line skipping policy (which I'm glad to see was apparently erroneous information).

Kind of related,  I think in the past we discussed leaders shooting on the range then "having to"  race back to work because they're so busy,  leaving troops to pick up their brass.

 

medicineman

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Jarnhamar said:
Kind of related,  I think in the past we discussed leaders shooting on the range then "having to"  race back to work because they're so busy,  leaving troops to pick up their brass.

...and clean the weapon too.  BTDT, didn't think too highly of those that left us with that to do for them.

MM
 

Good2Golf

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Jarnhamar said:
...Kind of related,  I think in the past we discussed leaders shooting on the range then "having to"  race back to work because they're so busy,  leaving troops to pick up their brass.

Good leaders would take the last serial - picking up brass can be a valuable opportunity, amongst many, to practice MBWA.* ;)

:2c:

Regards
G2G


* MBWA - management by walking around
 

Lumber

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medicineman said:
...and clean the weapon too.  BTDT, didn't think too highly of those that left us with that to do for them.

MM

Class-A reservists get paid extra to come in just to clean rifles from the range weekend. My class-B and RegF personnel don't, which is why our weapons custodians tell them not to worry about cleaning the weapons, that their guys will come in to clean them during the week.
 

George Wallace

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Lumber said:
Class-A reservists get paid extra to come in just to clean rifles from the range weekend. My class-B and RegF personnel don't, which is why our weapons custodians tell them not to worry about cleaning the weapons, that their guys will come in to clean them during the week.

???

Perhaps your PRes works that way, but mine worked in a manner that ALL cleaned their weapon after the Ranges or Exercise before they were returned. 

Class A Reservists were hired to come in later in the week to go over the weapons again, after they had 'sweat' for a day or two. 

Unlike the Reg Force, people are less likely to be available to clean their weapons a second time, after initial cleaning; so I see no problem with bringing in a Class A to go over the weapons again.  That did not in anyway exempt anyone from the initial cleaning of their weapons after firing or use on Exercise.
 
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