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Officers to the front of the line at clothing?

Lumber

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George Wallace said:
???

Perhaps your PRes works that way, but mine worked in a manner that ALL cleaned their weapon after the Ranges or Exercise before they were returned. 

Class A Reservists were hired to come in later in the week to go over the weapons again, after they had 'sweat' for a day or two. 

Unlike the Reg Force, people are less likely to be available to clean their weapons a second time, after initial cleaning; so I see no problem with bringing in a Class A to go over the weapons again.  That did not in anyway exempt anyone from the initial cleaning of their weapons after firing or use on Exercise.

We had 41 people fire 14 weapons. It would be kind of crowded trying to get everyone to clean those rifles.

Anyways, when I asked if we we're going to be cleaning our weapons when we got back to barracks, I was told "Nah, don't worry about it Sir, our guys will clean them on Tuesday/Thursday night."
 

Fishbone Jones

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Lumber said:
We had 41 people fire 14 weapons. It would be kind of crowded trying to get everyone to clean those rifles.

Anyways, when I asked if we we're going to be cleaning our weapons when we got back to barracks, I was told "Nah, don't worry about it Sir, our guys will clean them on Tuesday/Thursday night."

Which would have made an excellent learning point for everyone if you'd stated, "I fired this rifle, I'll clean it".

Maybe it's just a Corp thing but we make it a habit to take care of our mounts and tools before we take care of ourselves. Same as George stated though, we have a couple of people come in and give 'em a quick wipe down and pull through for the sweat issues.

However, we're getting off track, so let's wrap up the sidebar and get back to QM. 8)
 

c_canuk

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Jarnhamar said:
(going off track a bit) It's an argument  I usually pitch to students but you can  make a strong academic argument that leaders should eat first. It's more detrimental to the mission if section commanders are weak and all messed up from lack of food than if riflemen #4 is.  If a company commander is all messed up from not getting enough water and food he or she will make more disastrous decisions than a corporal. 

That would of course kill morale and causes annamosity which IMO is the issue with a blanket line skipping policy (which I'm glad to see was apparently erroneous information).

I disagree, the idea that the top eats last comes from the philosophy of, "Take care of the troops, and the troops will take care of you."

If your troops see you go without once, they'll make sure there is something for you next time at the very least. Most likely snicky-snacks will appear out of assorted people's personal reserves. If they care about you that is. The troops aren't robots, they know how important the CO's decisions are and what will happen if they start to go hungry.

Also keep in mind, the CO can afford to skip a meal once in a while, they'll be getting plenty of caloric intake from the coffee their downing constantly and aren't doing heavy manual labour.

I think it would be fair to say, if the troops see you consistently make sure they are taken care of before yourself, it will change your position in their mental hierarchy from "The CO" to "Our CO".

my 2 cents.
 

kratz

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I had a CO in NavRes who routinely went over-budget with new and innovative training concepts. We (Logistics staff), often heard him state, "it's the cost of doing business". 15 years later, lessons learned and shared, many of his original ideas are now routine parts of many NRD units and training. I have a lot of respect for this senior officer and the public examples he demonstrated to all ranks. As others noted, we willingly worked harder for him due to his methods.

From my perspective, when I was in. During training evolutions, officers waited until NCMs ate first. Command made a point of waiting near the end of the line and spread out to eat among the crew. During an Ex and hot wash up, I have observed key positions return kit to supply (QM) with priority. This was logical and not a 'British' entitlement, as these pers were required to carry on with time sensitive duties to meet timings.

As a general rule though, I've not seen an expectation of priority from anyone with TI. Those rare times I've come across it, it tends to be new, young, inexperienced pers who have not learned when it's appropriate or necessary to use such a privilege.
 

Colin Parkinson

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c_canuk said:
I disagree, the idea that the top eats last comes from the philosophy of, "Take care of the troops, and the troops will take care of you."

If your troops see you go without once, they'll make sure there is something for you next time at the very least. Most likely snicky-snacks will appear out of assorted people's personal reserves. If they care about you that is. The troops aren't robots, they know how important the CO's decisions are and what will happen if they start to go hungry.

Also keep in mind, the CO can afford to skip a meal once in a while, they'll be getting plenty of caloric intake from the coffee their downing constantly and aren't doing heavy manual labour.

I think it would be fair to say, if the troops see you consistently make sure they are taken care of before yourself, it will change your position in their mental hierarchy from "The CO" to "Our CO".

my 2 cents.

Yes if you miss a meal and your guys don't bring you something, then likely they don't feel much for you. Having your guys go out of their way to take care of you when you did not ask is a really nice feeling and an indicator you are doing something right.
 

ballz

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Jarnhamar said:
Kind of related,  I think in the past we discussed leaders shooting on the range then "having to"  race back to work because they're so busy,  leaving troops to pick up their brass.

It's one of those things where people have to use their own judgement. I make no apologies for the numerous ranges that I was shuttled to during this year's fall training cycle, and then promptly shuttled back from. Long after the troops were done picking up brass, returned, and having left the building to go home to their families, I was still in the office trying to get our company through the s**tshow that was the next bound (sometimes just the next day). That said, on the ranges that I did stay out for an extended period of time, like between the day and night sups, I picked up brass when I couldn't do anything more productive. Trust me, I'd love to have time to go out to the range for a day and just spend time shooting shit with troops between serials.

I did, and always do, clean my own weapon. And I do my best to help my crew with our LAV as the crew commander of that LAV, but there is a reason I have a senior Cpl as a gunner and driver in HQ... it's part of their job description that they will be leaned upon more than a gunner or driver in a rifle platoon. They are senior Cpls that have proven themselves in a rifle platoon already and get a lot of privileges being in Coy HQ (PT is on their own except for part, as an example), they also have more responsibility in return since the OC, 2IC, and LAV Capt can't always be around to make sure LAV is ready to step off and we're relying on them to make sure we are good to go from their end of things, and they are relying on us to make sure the Coy is ready for the next bound on our end of things.

My crew's morale sits pretty good and my kit hasn't been thrown out the air sentry hatch yet, so I think they know I've done the best I can and realize I can't always fulfill all the duties that a MCpl can in a rifle platoon as the crew commander.
 

daftandbarmy

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There is always one occasion where an Infantry Officer should go first: through the gap in the hedge, especially when no one else wants to.
 

Jarnhamar

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ballz said:
It's one of those things where people have to use their own judgement. I make no apologies for the numerous ranges that I was shuttled to during this year's fall training cycle, and then promptly shuttled back from. Long after the troops were done picking up brass, returned, and having left the building to go home to their families, I was still in the office trying to get our company through the s**tshow that was the next bound (sometimes just the next day). That said, on the ranges that I did stay out for an extended period of time, like between the day and night sups, I picked up brass when I couldn't do anything more productive. Trust me, I'd love to have time to go out to the range for a day and just spend time shooting shit with troops between serials.

I totally get that and I believe you're that kind of guy but lets be 100% honest here. We both know there's officers (and NCOs) who bullshit reasons why they just have to leave the range right after shooting (or related to this thread, why they can't wait in line). Some are truly busy, some just don't want to be bothered being out there.  When the CO calls back a full G-wagon back to the range to pick up brass along side him and the RSM that's a good indicator someones not as busy as they think.
 

ballz

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Jarnhamar said:
I totally get that and I believe you're that kind of guy but lets be 100% honest here. We both know there's officers (and NCOs) who bullshit reasons why they just have to leave the range right after shooting (or related to this thread, why they can't wait in line). Some are truly busy, some just don't want to be bothered being out there.  When the CO calls back a full G-wagon back to the range to pick up brass along side him and the RSM that's a good indicator someones not as busy as they think.

It's all true. It's just something that comes down to personal judgement, both for the leader and the follower. The leader needs to execise good judgement on when he can or can not help out in such a manner or when he is doing a better service to his followers doing something else.... and he needs to know (as I have said in a different thread in different terms...) that he is going to be rightfully judged by his followers accordingly. The troops generally can tell after a few outings who fucks them off because the task/work happens to be mundane and who is genuinely needed elsewhere at a certain point in time.
 

SupersonicMax

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I think it's okay to give perks based on ranks (not only Officers). There is, afterall, a pecking order in the military and not everybody is equal.

However, how an individual uses these perks speaks volumes about what kind of person but more importantly leader that individual really is.  Sometimes it may be appropriate to use the perks.  Other times, and I would argue most of the time, it may be better sitting down with everybody else, open the ears and listen to what people making the machine run everyday have to say. 

My 2 cents


 

medicineman

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Lumber said:
Class-A reservists get paid extra to come in just to clean rifles from the range weekend. My class-B and RegF personnel don't, which is why our weapons custodians tell them not to worry about cleaning the weapons, that their guys will come in to clean them during the week.

I'm talking about when I was in the Reg Force ;)...at a 1 CMBG medical unit that used to be in Calgary...

MM
 

Blackadder1916

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medicineman said:
I'm talking about when I was in the Reg Force ;)...at a 1 CMBG medical unit that used to be in Calgary...

MM

Having run range exercises for a "1 CMBG medical unit that used to be in Calgary" (and likely having been there at the tail end of your posting, though I don't know if you ever were on a range run by me), there are probably a few factors that may have contributed to officers (possibly) not cleaning weapons.  Back in the old days (don't know if it is still the same) officers, WOs and Snr NCOs in medical field units were issued pistols as their personal weapons. [personal bit*h] . . . even when I wanted to be issued a rifle (I prefer them to sidearms), such as when I took the platoon to Rwanda, my request was refused . . . [/personal bit*h]  While the CFFET (is that term still used?) continued to officially designate rifles (by position) as the pers weapon of many who carried pistols, the total number of weapons held by the unit only matched the actual number of pers on our establishment.  There was not a pool of unassigned rifles and/or pistols that could be singularly issued to individuals for use on range practices other than their assigned weapon.  Since the pistol carriers had to fire C7 serials for IBTS, the few available "extra" weapons were swapped among those pers, or "borrowed" weapons from those who had already fired their serial.  There weren't a lot of rifles in the unit that didn't already belong to someone responsible for its cleaning.  Now, if you had to clean some shitbag's pistol, because he either didn't properly clean following use or on a following day, then I could see your point - I always cleaned my own pistol.  I do, however, recollect the RQ had a tendency to take the opportunity a day or so after a range practice to have all the weapons (regardless of who it was assigned to or even if it had been fired) cleaned en masse by whoever was available in the hangar, which usually meant the cage dwellers of Med and Amb Coys.

As for policing brass at the end of a range practise, on my exercises if an individual (regardless of rank, well, the CO and RSM excepted) was still there at the end of the day, they policed brass.  However, I didn't like having extra useless dicks hanging around when I ran ranges unless they are involved as safety or coaching staff.  I put most Medical Branch officers in that category, because a significant portion of them were neither trained or experienced in those roles.  As for the soldiers in the unit, by the time the butts at the Sarcee ranges were manned, background activity organized, and a couple of rotations on the firing line detailed, there weren't a lot of spare bodies in the unit.
 

medicineman

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The time I'm thinking of was at the front end of my posting  - around 1990/91, when, despite having "personal" weapons (and prior to the optical sight arrival of the C7A1's) we just took out a pile of guns and everyone cycled through the rifles and the pistols (well, SNCO's/WO/'s/Officers did the pistols) and we just cleaned those...even if we didn't shoot the pistols (which us lowly types didn't), we still cleaned them.

I'm a firm believer in the term "personal" means just that - I wouldn't expect anyone to clean my gear (nor would I really trust many to either), so why should someone expect me to do their's?  Platoon kit - no biggy for me, since we all use(d) it.  My truck/amb - again no biggy...though I did get somewhat annoyed at cleaning out someone else's amb when we'd been out for a long time and it was full of sunflower seed shells I didn't eat, spittoons I didn't use, etc, much like, being a non smoker, having to police up butts for the lazy tw@ts that left them lying around.

If the MO's weren't cleaning their weapons, which more often than not they didn't (other than the post shoot wipe downs), that to me sounds like a bit of poor planning scheduling wise, as it can be worked in - they got away to launch the bullets, they need to be able to get away to look after the bullet launching device, as it's part in parcel of getting comfy with the weapon AND making sure it keeps them alive...of course, that's likely why I'm not the/and RSM/CO/Surg Gen/CDS/CAF CWO ;D.

The succession of RQ's that were there did make sure all weapons were cleaned, regardless of users...though you always drew your own first.  I even had to go over from the B Hosp on the odd occasion for such parties...since we were part of the unit still, and likely had been out punching paper as well. 

MM
 

BinRat55

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Lightguns said:
Concur, here in Gagetown, COs have always been waited on first but they also have their EA call ahead for Clothing Stores expect them.  High paid help is useless waiting in lines.

Yeah no. That doesn't actually happen here in Gagetown.
 

BinRat55

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I found this thread interesting how it morphed from Officers waiting in line at Clothing Stores to meal lines and weapons training to MIR / UMS lines... I think the common thread in all the posts were centered around "Who's more important?" "Who is a higher priority?" or "Who thinks they're the most special?"...

We are going to be taking a different approach in the new year. There is a designated waiting area here in Clothing Stores. This waiting area will be manned with a "Wal-Mart Greeter" of sorts. Our guests will be prioritized based on a few factors - nature of the visit, rank (very loosely) and any other factors brought to the attention of our "queue-master".

It's important to note that we here in Clothing Stores feel that everyone is as important as the next - from the B Comd to the no-hook Pte. However, we also realize that each rank AND trade comes with it's own set of responsibilities, timings and duties. If we have a kitting for a deployment (young Cpl going away for the first time for example) and the Base Commander walks in, Base Commander waits.

In many cases, those in a command position will actually let the Base Sup O know that he/she will be in their lines for business (courtesy)

Back to our new waiting area. We will be having the digital number thingie like you see at DMV. Calling number 12!! If the queue-master can take care of really quick issues (Can I get a copy of my docs? May I get a copy of the newest MLR? Can I just grab a few shoulder flags?) they will - in and out.

We are hoping to promote fairness while respecting customer's timings and priorities. Sometimes a young Pte will take a higher priority than a CO. Sometimes a young 2Lt will take priority over the FSM.
 

armyvern

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Good2Golf said:
Good leaders would take the last serial - picking up brass can be a valuable opportunity, amongst many, to practice MBWA.* ;)

:2c:

Regards
G2G


* MBWA - management by walking around

My CO and I do.  Also, should have heard the comments from the troops on the ranges last year here in Edmonton when I showed up over at the mag charging tables when they called 'for volunteers' to bomb up the mags before the relays even began.  'Twas a long day and did cause the CO and I to make comments to each other such as, "we're getting too old for this shit", but there we were and are.  We actually enjoy that work over the stuff, and it is work - lots of it, that occurs at the office.
 

dapaterson

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ArmyVern said:
My CO and I do.  Also, should have heard the comments from the troops on the ranges last year here in Edmonton when I showed up over at the mag charging tables when they called 'for volunteers' to bomb up the mags before the relays even began.  'Twas a long day and did cause the CO and I to make comments to each other such as, "we're getting too old for this shit", but there we were and are.  We actually enjoy that work over the stuff, and it is work - lots of it, that occurs at the office.

Exactly.  A rainy day on the range with troops beats sitting in the office, every time.
 

Oldgateboatdriver

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In the Navy, we call it BAD* leadership.

As DeckO, even though my role was safety officer, I use to show up on deck with the very first seaman beginning the set-up and not leaving until the last piece of gear was put away, especially in miserable weather, either from cold or rain. And smiling and looking happy throughout (which used to drive at lest one of my Buffers nuts - as he liked complaining about the weather all the time).

Sharing misery and lending a hand: Sure signs of positive leadership.

BTW: Merry Christmas to all.  :subbies:

*: B-e  A-bout on D-eck.
 

Jarnhamar

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[quote author=BinRat55]

It's important to note that we here in Clothing Stores feel that everyone is as important as the next - from the B Comd to the no-hook Pte. However, we also realize that each rank AND trade comes with it's own set of responsibilities, timings and duties. If we have a kitting for a deployment (young Cpl going away for the first time for example) and the Base Commander walks in, Base Commander waits.
[/quote]

Nice to see you posting again BinRat.

It seems like your crew is really putting a lot of thought into this.
 

Eye In The Sky

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Yup, supply *triage*.  I've waited 20 minutes when  all I needed was a chit for the tailor, which takes 15 seconds.
 
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