On asking questions & hostile dog-pile replies.

[Vimy_gunner]

MCG 

              Good post and I am in agreement with you .  As a Civy I tried to read more than post it actually does help you get the feel of the site  .  You can also  tell this by the number of years that I have been on this site and the post that I have done .      I think the problem with any internet based forum is that there are a few posters who believe that because there not face to face with some one they can behave any way they want .
            I personal believe that behavior like this is sad and hopefully through continuing carefull watch of the Mods we can correct anything like this and keep army.ca the way it is a great place for information on the Canadian Army .

  This is from what I've seen, the army's number one recruiting tool and many come here to decide whether to apply or join.  The disposition should be happier.

I've spent hours upon hours of posting and reading my favourite motocross and hockey forum and some of the responses received by posters here, make those sites look pg rated.  No question is a dumb question, well some are, but very few from what I've read.  Considering how often policies, rules, etc within the CF change, an answer given a year ago can be quite irrelevant.  A recent poster had his head chopped off by a mod for asking a question that was answered (in 2004). 

In my short time on these forums, I've spent quite a few hours researching and could spend many more hours without even coming close to knowing everything I want or need to know. 

I do have a life and at a certain point, straight answers are needed.  I read through an entire thread of about 40 pages and the thread starter was "throat punched" because after reading through it, he still didn't receive a clear answer.  I actually went back to read his question, it wasn't answered, but he was told that we won't baby you, use the search function and read back in the thread, your question was answered.  It wasn't answered. 

Your trying to set a tone where you want to help people out so that they feel they actually want to join.  Some will refuse to spend four hours looking at one thread hoping for an answer, but you might be turning away a great soldier in the future by not offering an easy answer.  If it's a stupid question, it must be an easy answer.  So take the same time you would to berate someone and give that answer.  The more people posting on the forum that know the answers to those "silly" questions, the easier it becomes for all the more knowledgeable posters. 

I was sick in bed for nearly three weeks with the swine flu and gained some much needed information from using the search function, but most of the time, I'm way to busy with school and a full-time job to spend hours and hours reading through old threads.  I'm sure there are others like me who don't have the time to look for an answer and aren't too lazy to use the search function. 

A forum is a discussion forum, yet threads are locked down in the middle of a discussion about the given subjects for no logical reason.  Nothing bad is being said, no vulgar tones or language, no badmouthing other posters, but appeared to be locked down because by the sounds of it, the mod grew tired of reading the discussion. 

If everyone is more friendly, maybe the mods and experts don't have to answer everything.  I've already answered a few questions myself and the answers were given as quick as the "throat punches."  If you know the answer, answer it.  The more people with knowledge using the forums, the more posters who can help.  Thus, actually reducing the work load of mods and long time posters.  That's what I've experienced on other forums.  Much more friendly.  You go to sportsnet.ca hockey forum and you ask a question I saw the other day "what position does Ales Hemsky play?"  If a question similar to that is asked here, lol, clear the room, it's gonna blow.  Shockingly, despite a forum full of hardcore Edmonton Oilers fans, we realized that he was a new fan and gave him a quick answer.  A future season ticket holder perhaps?  Every Oiler fan helps keep the team going.  Every member of the army or future member is going to have an impact on its future.  But, if we had given the "you retard" how can you be a fan and not know that answer, he would have maybe jumped to another team.  Instead the Oiler family grows.
The army is a family, this forum is filled with members of that family and future in-laws (new posters) wanting to join the family.  Not a part of that family yet and others are like me and want to be.  Don't throw us to the pavement.  I rather like the thought of having a second family before getting married  

I've tried to not be offensive or say anything out of line on this thread.  Just trying to be honest and helpful in my experience in the category of "new poster." 

 

[MasterInstructor]

THANK YOU!

 

[ltmaverick25]

I am in agreement with alot of what Vimy_gunner is saying.  The fact of the matter is, there are likely quite a few Canadians out there that would make fantastic sailors, soldiers or airmen/airwomen that are not going to spend hours searching forums for information.  Frankly, it is much easier to just ask.  I know alot of members would be tempted to respond "if they are not willing to spend time searching then they are not the type of person the CF needs"....  I beleive that line of thinking is faulty.  I think that a little more compromise on our part from this point of view would better serve the CF over the long run.

 

[MasterInstructor]

This is exactly what I was trying to get to but my thread was locked. Maybe my choice of words weren't as good. Thanks again.

 

[Scott]

  This is from what I've seen, the army's number one recruiting tool and many come here to decide whether to apply or join.  The disposition should be happier.

You DO realize that this is a private site, not affiliated with DND, riiiight? If we have become a 'tool' for recruiting then I welcome that but it is not at the behest of the taxpayer and therefore we can have whatever disposition we like, one that has been discussed to death here, you're just putting new spin on it.

I've spent hours upon hours of posting and reading my favourite motocross and hockey forum and some of the responses received by posters here, make those sites look pg rated.  No question is a dumb question, well some are, but very few from what I've read.  Considering how often policies, rules, etc within the CF change, an answer given a year ago can be quite irrelevant.  A recent poster had his head chopped off by a mod for asking a question that was answered (in 2004). 

First, if you want to present recent history to back up your claims at least have the decency to link the thread you're mentioning. I have limited time to come on to the site, do my regular reading and also try to find some time to help run the site. So if you've got a gripe then be specific. Just saying that some thread got locked with mention made that the question was answered in 2004 gives me zilch and also serves to stop me from caring any further.

Second, this is not a hockey site or a motocross forum, full stop.

Third, what makes you so expert on how much CF policy changes? Have you ever considered that the person answering a question with 'your question was answered in 2004' might just be an SME?

In my short time on these forums, I've spent quite a few hours researching and could spend many more hours without even coming close to knowing everything I want or need to know. 

That goes for everyone. Patience is a virtue...as is affinity for the search function. We don't keep saying it because it's good for our health or to inflate our post counts.

I do have a life and at a certain point, straight answers are needed.  I read through an entire thread of about 40 pages and the thread starter was "throat punched" because after reading through it, he still didn't receive a clear answer.  I actually went back to read his question, it wasn't answered, but he was told that we won't baby you, use the search function and read back in the thread, your question was answered.  It wasn't answered. 

You make no sense here. You say the thread starter (original poster) was throat punched and told to read back through a thread he started? I am not going to try any further here, if you have a beef then link me to the thread so I can see for myself. All you are offering is conjecture.

Your trying to set a tone where you want to help people out so that they feel they actually want to join.  Some will refuse to spend four hours looking at one thread hoping for an answer, but you might be turning away a great soldier in the future by not offering an easy answer.  If it's a stupid question, it must be an easy answer.  So take the same time you would to berate someone and give that answer.  The more people posting on the forum that know the answers to those "silly" questions, the easier it becomes for all the more knowledgeable posters. 

What?

If you need your hand held and hugs passed out all the time then you'd better think twice about the CF as a career. In fact, there might be many you should think twice about. Oh my, but now I have crossed the line into being all mean spirited, haven't I?

Have you ever considered that the CF has gone on just fine without your contribution thus far and will likely continue to do so in the future? You might THINK you could be a great soldier but it really matter little until you step up and prove it. If you want to do that then you'll follow the same steps that everyone else does and you won't go thinking you can do it before actually making the attempt. This attitude severely tires me.

I was sick in bed for nearly three weeks with the swine flu and gained some much needed information from using the search function, but most of the time, I'm way to busy with school and a full-time job to spend hours and hours reading through old threads.  I'm sure there are others like me who don't have the time to look for an answer and aren't too lazy to use the search function. 

You're the exception rather than the rule here, thanks. We get the odd complaint about this but with over 20, 000 members getting two to three complaints a month is no biggie to me. Want a better guarantee of happiness? Buy a Remington Razor.

Have you evcer thought that the other posters here do much in their every day lives as well and do not want to see the boards further cluttered with kife like this? No, you didn't.

A forum is a discussion forum, yet threads are locked down in the middle of a discussion about the given subjects for no logical reason.  Nothing bad is being said, no vulgar tones or language, no badmouthing other posters, but appeared to be locked down because by the sounds of it, the mod grew tired of reading the discussion. 

Once again, you offer no links so I offer no explanation. And even if you did link me you are not owed anything. I normally would explain out of courtesy but your courtesies have run out.

If everyone is more friendly, maybe the mods and experts don't have to answer everything.  I've already answered a few questions myself and the answers were given as quick as the "throat punches."  If you know the answer, answer it.  The more people with knowledge using the forums, the more posters who can help.  Thus, actually reducing the work load of mods and long time posters.  That's what I've experienced on other forums.  Much more friendly.  You go to sportsnet.ca hockey forum and you ask a question I saw the other day "what position does Ales Hemsky play?"  If a question similar to that is asked here, lol, clear the room, it's gonna blow.  Shockingly, despite a forum full of hardcore Edmonton Oilers fans, we realized that he was a new fan and gave him a quick answer.  A future season ticket holder perhaps?  Every Oiler fan helps keep the team going.  Every member of the army or future member is going to have an impact on its future.  But, if we had given the "you retard" how can you be a fan and not know that answer, he would have maybe jumped to another team.  Instead the Oiler family grows.
The army is a family, this forum is filled with members of that family and future in-laws (new posters) wanting to join the family.  Not a part of that family yet and others are like me and want to be.  Don't throw us to the pavement.  I rather like the thought of having a second family before getting married  

Have fun on the Oilers forums then. There were no resources like this when I joined and many here didn't know such a thing as the internet when they joined. We all made it just fine. Foolish would be thinking that someone's reception on an internet forum could chase them away from the military, especially if they 'know they have what it takes' and all that, yeah?

I've tried to not be offensive or say anything out of line on this thread.  Just trying to be honest and helpful in my experience in the category of "new poster."

Mmmm hmmm. Read your post again and then re-read your last comment a few times and THINK about what you said.

 

[matt101pwn]

Sounds good to me.

 

[George Wallace]

[rant]

I find that the people who complain the most about the Tone and Content on this site are the ones who are too lazy to have read the Site Guidelines and to do any reading of any of the topics that may pertain to their particular questions.  They quite often claim to be university students, who should know how to conduct Research, but don't seem to have two clues as to how to do so on this site.  They claim that they are too busy to SEARCH, or too busy to use correct spelling and grammar, or too busy for a multitude of other reasons, that they want the rest of the site members to bend over backwards and give up their time and enjoyment to do the Research for them.  Sorry, Chumps, but I would also like to read the posts on this site for my own pleasure and information, instead of doing your work for you.  Your lack of maturity and initiative will not do you well in joining the CF in any way, shape or form; but thanks for coming out.

[/rant]

 

[Fishbone Jones]

They claim that they are too busy to SEARCH, or too busy to use correct spelling and grammar, or too busy for a multitude of other reasons, that they want the rest of the site members to bend over backwards and give up their time and enjoyment to do the Research for them

.......and then they spend hours here surfing the forums and writing massive tomes, but are 'too busy' to search for an answer......or read the guidelines.

Let someone else run the planet today, enjoy the ride for awhile.

 

[Mike Bobbitt]

This particular point has been discussed numerous times, and always seems to go in a circle. (Ironically, a search would have lead to some of the previous discussions. )

While I'm always open to feedback and to reviewing our existing processes, those who are new to the site have to understand that we've already been down this road and spent a great deal of time researching the options.

There's actually a lot of irony in Vimy Gunner's request to simply answer his questions because he doesn't have time to search. The first and most obvious one is that if you don't have the time to search, what makes you think others have the time to do the research on your behalf? Even if others already know the answer, it would take their time to seek out your question and compose a reply. Given that in many cases, the info is already here, it's easy to imagine that would be a waste of their time.

To me, a statement like this smacks of entitlement: My time is more valuable than your time.

It's quite possible that was not the intent, which leads to irony #2. You may not be coming across the way you intended. In your post to the "Tone and Content" thread. That's ironic, and may indicate that you need to review your posting style.

Irony #3 is a bit more subtle. Let's say someone wants to know about the CF's policy on drug use. They could search. The info is there. I make no claims about how easy it is to find. It may take an hour of searching and reading to find the specific information you want, but I guarantee you in this case (and in many others) the information is already here and accurate.

The other, easier option is to make a new post and ask. Assuming someone considers your time more valuable than their own, you can head off and do more important things while they reply. You have your answer, problem solved. Now try to imagine this scenario multiplied out tens or even hundreds of times, which is exactly what history shows will occur. We end up with the same questions posted over and over here. What's worse, you'll have a wide variance in responses. Some will be informed, articulate and accurate. Others will be conjecture, off topic or misleading.

Now imagine that this has all occurred *before* you showed up here, and that you're willing to take a few minutes to search. In this scenario, your search will yield pages of results, with varying degrees of accuracy and applicability. In this case, the user who is willing to invest a bit of time in their question is punished by those who are not.

Those who know me know that I never espouse an approach where "good" behaviour is punished, especially if "bad" behaviour is rewarded in the process.

Our approach - and I've yet to be convinced it's not effective - is to shut down or redirect repeat questions so that the information here can be as complete and accurate as possible. This not only facilitates searching, but encourages ongoing participation. A simple 2 post thread with a question and answer does not have the same 'richness' as a 40 page thread which covers many aspects related to the original query.

Now, are we completely successful? Certainly not. There are many long, rambling threads that unfortunately go nowhere. These are the bane of our collective existence, and the Staff are constantly tracking down and culling these threads. (See recent complaints about locking and deleting. ) If you see a thread that has no intrinsic value, has not been answered appropriately, or hampers good search habits, please report it to us and we will deal with it.

Don't forget that this is a community, not a service. If you want it to be effective, you need to participate.

In the end, I am open to feedback and even to changing the system, as I mentioned above. However the proposed changes would have to be an improvement to the current system and frankly, that case hasn't been made to me yet.


Cheers
Mike

 

[the 48th regulator]

Mike,

If I may use someone else's words, in my feelings to your post;

THANK YOU!

dileas

tess

 

[mellian]

If one cannot find what they are looking for with the forum search tool, then try using google to search the forum instead. ie: searching for...  whatever site:forums.milnet.ca, and then all the results are from the message board only.

I am not sure if Simple Machines has it as a feature or mod, but maybe have blog/forum tags where one can categories certain threads. It can help narrow down the search. As to who is allowed putting tags can either be the Staff only, or members can help tag existing and new threads. 

 

[MasterInstructor]

If one cannot find what they are looking for with the forum search tool, then try using google to search the forum instead. ie: searching for...  whatever site:forums.milnet.ca, and then all the results are from the message board only.

Thanks for the idea! Works way better!

 

[GAP]

Mike

An excellent comment....thank you

 

[Michael OLeary]

The army is a family, this forum is filled with members of that family and future in-laws (new posters) wanting to join the family.  Not a part of that family yet and others are like me and want to be.  Don't throw us to the pavement.  I rather like the thought of having a second family before getting married

So insightful, and yet ironic in its repetitiveness.

We Are Family

As you spend time here' you'll be amazed at how much ground we've covered, both as an information resource on the Canadian Forces, and as a social structure.

 

[Loachman]

The other, easier option is to make a new post and ask. Assuming someone considers your time more valuable than their own, you can head off and do more important things while they reply. You have your answer, problem solved. Now try to imagine this scenario multiplied out tens or even hundreds of times, which is exactly what history shows will occur. We end up with the same questions posted over and over here. What's worse, you'll have a wide variance in responses. Some will be informed, articulate and accurate. Others will be conjecture, off topic or misleading.

Repetitive questions with repetitive answers also clogs the Search Function, often making it harder for those who use it to find what they're looking for. There are a couple of Mods who spend a fair amount of their valuable personal free time consolidating, merging, and cleaning out redundant threads and posts in order to keep things workable.

If you think that your time is worth more than theirs, feel free to publicly justify your presumption.

 

[matt101pwn]

Sounds good. I appreciate everyones help on the site. I have gotten alot of information on this site and it has helped me alot. Continue to do good work everyone!

 

[medaid]

Why thank you for your permission.

I shall indeed to continue to offer my advice in a manner appropriate to the questions being asked.

I'm glad someone has finally authorized me to do so!

 

[mariomike]

Continue to do good work everyone!

Thanks, Matt! 

 

[matt101pwn]

Ahaha you guys are funny. Thanks again and no problem you guys do a great job.

 

[Vimy_gunner]

Just for the record.  I never started this thread, but glad to post a quick response.

I had written out a long post, but decided that it was pointless to post it as everything I had to say about making the forum better, was in the original post.  The original thread starter, who has named me the successor asked for the advice of posters.  I gave my advice on how to improve an already awesome forum filled with helpful people.

I've received an immense amount of information from being on the forum and never once have I personally attacked anyone, despite receiving them myself in this thread and others.  I won't respond to that as I feel there is a level of class to adhere to.  If I'm asked to openly give my opinion, it should be taken into consideration, but it seems that is not the case.

The forum doesn't decide for me whether I want to join or not.  I'm already in the process and I'm looking forward to it.  In my life experience, I've learned there are good and bad apples in every corner and I expect nothing less from the Army.  I suspect there are many who agreed with my comments, but kept their mouths shut, because they knew how it would be taken, given the way I was personally attacked.

At any rate, to all the good soldiers out there and on this forum providing helpful information to those on this site, I thank-you!  Looking forward to being part of the family 

Cheers!