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Now that some Patricia's are joining the Strat's I'm sure we will corrupt them in no time.
- or CTS according to me...
- Thread starter KevinB
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or vice versa
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I think having the armoured wear coveralls (black or green) would be benificial to them working in the close confines of the MGS and Coyote as there is a lot of things to get caught up on not to mention the vehicle maintence side of things.
Would you accept "not emulated entirely" or "not completly emulated to the fullest extent"
Yup.. We sure ain't perfect, either. ;D
"I think having the armoured wear coveralls (black or green) would be benificial to them working in the close confines of the MGS and Coyote as there is a lot of things to get caught up on not to mention the vehicle maintence side of things."
Everything gets caught. I HATE coveralls, but they help keep the goo off you when swapping out the Leo engine compartment during a pack-pull. To hell with wear and tear on the clothing. When I am out of the call sign, I want to look just like everyone else. So do my guys who are on sentry, by the way, And a pair of coveralls make you stand out like a turd in a punch bowl.
Back to things getting caught in the vehicles, one Coyote in Kandahar ND'd TWO Halon bottles in TWO days because ONE member of the crew was not used to crawling around a Coyote full of ammo and kit while wearing a frag vest. First rule of getting hung up inside a vehicle - DON'T STRUGGLE! You are hung up for a reason, thrashing your legs to pull free will only result in a very expensive BANG when you kick a Halon Bottle. Same thing goes for tommorrow, too.
PD Trg a year ago, when we discussed - with WW2 vets who were there - the Strathcona Recce Troop bouncing the Melfa River in Italy, then hanging on to it and fighting like Hell along side a company of the Westies who joined them (and whose OC - Maj Mahoney - won the VC). One of the vets was the OC of a tank sqn at the time, and he thought one of the tank sqns should have dismounted, grabbed the BMGs off the Shermans, and fought their way to the river and across it to join up with the Recce Troop.
So, leave us the combat clothing/relish/whatever.
Stripping coveralls off at forty below to take a dump is no joy, either.
Yup.. We sure ain't perfect, either. ;D
"I think having the armoured wear coveralls (black or green) would be benificial to them working in the close confines of the MGS and Coyote as there is a lot of things to get caught up on not to mention the vehicle maintence side of things."
Everything gets caught. I HATE coveralls, but they help keep the goo off you when swapping out the Leo engine compartment during a pack-pull. To hell with wear and tear on the clothing. When I am out of the call sign, I want to look just like everyone else. So do my guys who are on sentry, by the way, And a pair of coveralls make you stand out like a turd in a punch bowl.
Back to things getting caught in the vehicles, one Coyote in Kandahar ND'd TWO Halon bottles in TWO days because ONE member of the crew was not used to crawling around a Coyote full of ammo and kit while wearing a frag vest. First rule of getting hung up inside a vehicle - DON'T STRUGGLE! You are hung up for a reason, thrashing your legs to pull free will only result in a very expensive BANG when you kick a Halon Bottle. Same thing goes for tommorrow, too.
PD Trg a year ago, when we discussed - with WW2 vets who were there - the Strathcona Recce Troop bouncing the Melfa River in Italy, then hanging on to it and fighting like Hell along side a company of the Westies who joined them (and whose OC - Maj Mahoney - won the VC). One of the vets was the OC of a tank sqn at the time, and he thought one of the tank sqns should have dismounted, grabbed the BMGs off the Shermans, and fought their way to the river and across it to join up with the Recce Troop.
So, leave us the combat clothing/relish/whatever.
Stripping coveralls off at forty below to take a dump is no joy, either.
George Wallace
Army.ca Dinosaur
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TCBF said:
Stripping anything off at forty to sixty below to take a dump is no joy at any time. I remember my experience up on patrol out of Pond Inlet using a Thunder Box. CCCCccccooooolllllllddddd!
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I would have thought that coveralls wouldn't get caught up like combts inside.
The only sentry I've seen you guys do is on back of the Leo in a crew tent.
The only sentry I've seen you guys do is on back of the Leo in a crew tent.
KevinB said:Dude you made my case for me. I mean hey the regular inf guys like to feel JTF assaulterish - lets buy them all Nomex CQB suits and MP-5 and C8CQB's so they can do section attacks felling like assaulters :
1) You dont need a CADPAT ensemble to sit behind a desk.
2) If you are field force and go to the field - the when you go to the field you wear field kit.
I am just sick and tied of some asshat saying - well I dotn like pockets on the sleeves - or I need pockets on my chest for my smokes or notepad etc. When they dont care how it feels in the field under armour or LBV etc. Field kit is FIELD KIT - don't water it down for the sake of some donut munching clown that wears his kit out from repeated washes to get the coffe stains out.
CFL - the boondogle would likely get your crap to you quicker.
I didn't say anything about buying new kit or redesigning kit for folks like me, I say we keep it as it is (non-leading edge types wearing cadpat). It seems like a waste to force most of us to give our cadpat back and spend millions buying us non-cadpat work clothes.
I don't need to feel like a JTF-2 door kicker, but If I have to deploy to the field straight from the office (and it happens) I like to be dressed appropriately. I work in an office most of the time, but on weekends and wednesday evenings I operate as a signaller and work in a training det, no commando here but I do need to dress for the job!
If they happen redesign the combat shirt to accomodate the TV and body armour then I won't complain if I don't get it or at the very least I will wait till my shirt is see through before I get one from ASU. I'm not here to rock the boat, because that can prove to be expensive.
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The real reason why we switched so fast.
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Well, my take on the issue is that every soldier should consider themselves to be a Rifleman first, tradesman second; every soldier can be expected to deploy on ops and work in a hostile environment (or train to do so) so every soldier should be issued a combat uniform - 3 TW uniforms and 2 AR uniforms should be the universal issue - soldiers going on Ops can get more issued as a temp issue as required.
The uniforms should be general purpose; as I said before not all our training and ops will require vest and plates and some soldiers won't be able to wear them to do their job while deployed. These two Crye items seem to have alot of the features we should look at:
http://www.cryeprecision.com/HTLM/products/field_shirt.htm#
http://www.cryeprecision.com/HTLM/products/combat_pants.htm
As well, it would be interesting to see a issue shirt for Ops that is compatible with the vest - Crye has designed one of these as well (it is the neat one Kevin is wearing):
http://www.cryeprecision.com/HTLM/products/combat_shirt.htm
This could be issued for Operations to soldiers who can be expected to leave the base and be wearing a flak-vest. Since it is a "skin contact" item, it would be issued once to a soldier if they require it and they would hold onto it afterwards.
Just some ideas, but clearly, the comfort, versatility, and simplicity of uniform design is something that should be considered. Gone are the days of the mass produced wool duds.
Infanteer
The uniforms should be general purpose; as I said before not all our training and ops will require vest and plates and some soldiers won't be able to wear them to do their job while deployed. These two Crye items seem to have alot of the features we should look at:
http://www.cryeprecision.com/HTLM/products/field_shirt.htm#
http://www.cryeprecision.com/HTLM/products/combat_pants.htm
As well, it would be interesting to see a issue shirt for Ops that is compatible with the vest - Crye has designed one of these as well (it is the neat one Kevin is wearing):
http://www.cryeprecision.com/HTLM/products/combat_shirt.htm
This could be issued for Operations to soldiers who can be expected to leave the base and be wearing a flak-vest. Since it is a "skin contact" item, it would be issued once to a soldier if they require it and they would hold onto it afterwards.
Just some ideas, but clearly, the comfort, versatility, and simplicity of uniform design is something that should be considered. Gone are the days of the mass produced wool duds.
Infanteer
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I think Infanteer means something akin to "business casual" wear, which would be worn for desk jobs and sport ribbons. It would bridge the gap between field/combat uniform, which is purely utilitarian, and DEUs which are purely aesthetic.
Not saying that I'm for it of course, I mean, we might as well go all the way and bring back the tan shorts too. Way I see it I have too many sets of uniforms already. If you're worried about the public image of the CF, worry about hiding all the fat people first.
Not saying that I'm for it of course, I mean, we might as well go all the way and bring back the tan shorts too. Way I see it I have too many sets of uniforms already. If you're worried about the public image of the CF, worry about hiding all the fat people first.
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Britney Spears said:
That is what I meant in my earlier post, yes - a decent looking service dress; for garrison work it would be "undress" - the USMC has a few nice versions which allow for sweater, jacket, short or long sleeved shirt.
I would prefer tan or brown to that urinal puck green thing we wear now....
I think both go hand in hand. Make a decent looking service dress and don't make it in sizes that fall in the obese range.
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First, thanks Kevin, for some comprehensible thoughts on kit, Many things which are second nature to you serving folks are a little remote for some of us retired old sweats and, I'm supposing, quite incomprehensible to civilians who read/post here.
My take on expensive operational clothing and equipment is that it is for operations and, of course, for training and preparing for operations. Notwithstanding its undoubted utility as a psychological bonding tool, it â “ expensive operational clothing â “ is neither necessary not even well suited for vehicle maintenance, auditing travel expense claims, painting curbs or debugging computer software.
Of course computer programmers and clerks go on operations and they go to the ranges, too. Of course all soldiers should have, and keep in good order, their operational uniforms and equipment and they all should use them a couple of times each year, at least, when they do their battle efficiency tests and their annual classifications.
I agree that cheap, easy care coveralls are the best things to wear for cleaning mud caked, greasy vehicles or painting the curbs blue, gold and black â “ everyone ought to have a set, including officers. I agree that we need a neat, comfortable, easy care garrison dress â “ not just for clerks and computer people â “ and I agree with Infanteer that the USMC provides a useful model. In my (outdated) experience, the American Marines managed to look smart in garrison and perform well in the field â “ it is, clearly, not beyond the wit of man.
I grew up in a 'system' when we had little in the way of specialized operational kit. We improvised â “ and we acquired bits of kit â “ approved or not â “ and modified the bejayzuz out of it until we had something that kept us reasonably warm and dry and kept our magazines, grenades and respirators handy. Maybe we â “ you, actually â “ have gone too far in enforcing standardization (which may limit the flow of good ideas 'up' the chain from users to designers) and allowing operational kit to be used for administrative duties.
My take on expensive operational clothing and equipment is that it is for operations and, of course, for training and preparing for operations. Notwithstanding its undoubted utility as a psychological bonding tool, it â “ expensive operational clothing â “ is neither necessary not even well suited for vehicle maintenance, auditing travel expense claims, painting curbs or debugging computer software.
Of course computer programmers and clerks go on operations and they go to the ranges, too. Of course all soldiers should have, and keep in good order, their operational uniforms and equipment and they all should use them a couple of times each year, at least, when they do their battle efficiency tests and their annual classifications.
I agree that cheap, easy care coveralls are the best things to wear for cleaning mud caked, greasy vehicles or painting the curbs blue, gold and black â “ everyone ought to have a set, including officers. I agree that we need a neat, comfortable, easy care garrison dress â “ not just for clerks and computer people â “ and I agree with Infanteer that the USMC provides a useful model. In my (outdated) experience, the American Marines managed to look smart in garrison and perform well in the field â “ it is, clearly, not beyond the wit of man.
I grew up in a 'system' when we had little in the way of specialized operational kit. We improvised â “ and we acquired bits of kit â “ approved or not â “ and modified the bejayzuz out of it until we had something that kept us reasonably warm and dry and kept our magazines, grenades and respirators handy. Maybe we â “ you, actually â “ have gone too far in enforcing standardization (which may limit the flow of good ideas 'up' the chain from users to designers) and allowing operational kit to be used for administrative duties.
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When I was in Wpg, 17 Wing had an ensemble of dress. Basically it worked out to those that spent 99% of their time in doors (see Puzzle Palace) wore a work dress while those that could spend time out side such as Base TN wore combats.
First off, I was one of those guys who wore coveralls. I was forced into it by my Tp WO- hated the idea, then once I used them loved it. His concept was that he could always get clean coveralls for his troops: getting combats cleaned was an iffy proposition. He was correct.
Coveralls are also cheap, tough, and great for a tank crew deployed.
I'm no longer a pointy end guy, and did my best to avoid getting CadPat issued. I failed. Having said that, though, I agree with the concept of one uniform. We will save big bucks by dropping all of the garrison dress, work dress, and any other dress. One (count them, only one) issue of DEU and we're away. Now to convince the PTB to never, ever wear DEU as a daily dress.
One interesting piont on the wearing of cam clothing: most of the time, cam really doesn't do much. The wermacht (sp?) grey was about the best colour at disappearing. However, the same studies found that soldiers felt more "warrior" like in cam- and that alone is a good enough reason for buying it.
In all honesty, i didn't often wear what was issued anyways: coveralls in the summer, sweat gear and windpants in the winter. It always worked out fine.
Cheers-Garry
Coveralls are also cheap, tough, and great for a tank crew deployed.
I'm no longer a pointy end guy, and did my best to avoid getting CadPat issued. I failed. Having said that, though, I agree with the concept of one uniform. We will save big bucks by dropping all of the garrison dress, work dress, and any other dress. One (count them, only one) issue of DEU and we're away. Now to convince the PTB to never, ever wear DEU as a daily dress.
One interesting piont on the wearing of cam clothing: most of the time, cam really doesn't do much. The wermacht (sp?) grey was about the best colour at disappearing. However, the same studies found that soldiers felt more "warrior" like in cam- and that alone is a good enough reason for buying it.
In all honesty, i didn't often wear what was issued anyways: coveralls in the summer, sweat gear and windpants in the winter. It always worked out fine.
Cheers-Garry
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Well regardless of what I wear at my desk, which doesn't matter to me that much, (be it deu, work dress, combats, spandex cadpat bodysuit, etc...) we do need to improve what soldiers get issued for field gear. Out on ex this weekend in pet it was cold and wet, one thing I noticed a great deal of was stealth suit hoods protruding from combat shirts, why is this not an issued item?? Where is our new, lightweight goretex rain jacket? Why are we issued a bulky, sweaty, heavy field jacket instead of a windproof smock? And my sleeka jacket is warmer, lighter and more compressable than the issue fleece one...
"If you're worried about the public image of the CF, worry about hiding all the fat people first."
Isn't that why we lost the tan uniform (Summer DEU), the best one ever issued? It was not a "fat friendly" uniform.
Why do we still wear Winter DEU in the summer? I still have my 1976 issued CF Service Dress Tunic and Trousers. An all -year uniform. A lot lighter than the Winter DEUs we wear.
Coveralls: Heavy Veh Maint Only, and not tactically.
Isn't that why we lost the tan uniform (Summer DEU), the best one ever issued? It was not a "fat friendly" uniform.
Why do we still wear Winter DEU in the summer? I still have my 1976 issued CF Service Dress Tunic and Trousers. An all -year uniform. A lot lighter than the Winter DEUs we wear.
Coveralls: Heavy Veh Maint Only, and not tactically.
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It is, you're just not high speed enough.
