OR not entertaining TD rates

[Uboa]

Hey guys,
    I had to make a new topic, because, although there are quite a few on claims already, none that I've found can really explain this to me. If any of you people could help me understand, it would be greatly appreciated. This is my current scenario:

I just went on an out-of-country TD, and the OR has given out 5000CAD advances (I know all the issues regarding advances, and didn't touch the money, paying everything out of pocket) and RIGHT before going on the plane, we get our itineraries describing our lodging and meals.

Lodging: military barracks for a time, and hotels for the rest

Meals: no meals provided (mess, ration cards, etc), no cooking facilities provided, and we are to live of of restaurants or buy food ourselves at a mess. (While at hotel there is a continental breakfast)

This seems like a normal TD, however, they included a paper which said we will keep all meal receipts, we will only be reimbursed what we provide and the statutory declarations would not be entertained.

Is this normal? Can an OR just decide not to give out rates? Should we not be entitle to normal rates, regardless of staying in a hotel or military barracks, given that no meals are provided and we were living off the economy? (minus those breakfasts)

If anyone has any insight on this, it would be appreciated, as right now, our chain of command isn't being to helpful. Thanks!

 

[ModlrMike]

I can't say what the rationale here is. That being said, there is nothing in the Temporary Duty Travel Instructions that prohibits them from asking for receipts. Para 4.08 of the same instructions states: "A member who is reasonably unable to submit a receipt in respect of an expense may submit a declaration in lieu of a receipt." I would point this out to them if they give you grief. The last time I did TD where breakfast was provided by the hotel, they calculated the normal per diem minus the amount that breakfast would account for.  The National Joint Council Travel Directive sets the rates for meals and incidentals [LINK]. Personally, I think they're doing this the hard way, with a great deal more work for them. If they want to sit there and tally every receipt, so be it, but I think taking breakfast off the top is the easier way to go.

 

[Lumber]

Hey guys,
    I had to make a new topic, because, although there are quite a few on claims already, none that I've found can really explain this to me. If any of you people could help me understand, it would be greatly appreciated. This is my current scenario:

I just went on an out-of-country TD, and the OR has given out 5000CAD advances (I know all the issues regarding advances, and didn't touch the money, paying everything out of pocket) and RIGHT before going on the plane, we get our itineraries describing our lodging and meals.

Lodging: military barracks for a time, and hotels for the rest

Meals: no meals provided (mess, ration cards, etc), no cooking facilities provided, and we are to live of of restaurants or buy food ourselves at a mess. (While at hotel there is a continental breakfast)

This seems like a normal TD, however, they included a paper which said we will keep all meal receipts, we will only be reimbursed what we provide and the statutory declarations would not be entertained.

Is this normal? Can an OR just decide not to give out rates? Should we not be entitle to normal rates, regardless of staying in a hotel or military barracks, given that no meals are provided and we were living off the economy? (minus those breakfasts)

If anyone has any insight on this, it would be appreciated, as right now, our chain of command isn't being to helpful. Thanks!

No, they can't just decide not to honour official policy. If you would like to review your entitlements, it's all found in CFTDTIs (CF Temporary Duty Travel Instructions).

Specifically, for out of country TD, it is chapter 8 that applies:

8.18 — MEAL ALLOWANCES

(1) (Entitlement — Full Day of Duty Travel) Subject to paragraph (4), a member who, for a full day, is on duty travel is entitled — except in respect of any meal that is provided at no expense to the member — to a breakfast, lunch, and dinner allowance.

...

(5) (Amount) The amounts of the breakfast, lunch, and dinner allowances in respect of a member’s location are:

(a) in respect of the first 30 days of duty travel, 100% of the rate set out in the NJC Travel Directive for the member’s location at the start of each day; and

(b) in respect of the 31 and any subsequent day of on duty travel, 75% of the rate set out in the NJC Travel Directive for the member’s location at the start of the day.

So, you can see that nowhere does it states that you'll only be reimbursed based on provided receipts.

In fact, the only time that they ask for receipts for meals is under Chapter 5 : "TRAVEL WITHIN PLACE OF DUTY".

 

[Uboa]

Thanks for the quick responses.
Some of the guys have gone up to the OR without receipts already, and they got chastised by the clerks for making their job harder my having to do stat decs. It's seems to me that their trying to not honour policies is what's causing that.
I was just not sure if there wasn't some clause somewhere, where you can go on TD and not be entitled to anything "as-per-COs-discretion" or something of the sort.
I think this will have to be a case of 15+ claims grievances.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Thanks for the quick responses.
Some of the guys have gone up to the OR without receipts already, and they got chastised by the clerks for making their job harder my having to do stat decs. It's seems to me that their trying to not honour policies is what's causing that.
I was just not sure if there wasn't some clause somewhere, where you can go on TD and not be entitled to anything "as-per-COs-discretion" or something of the sort.
I think this will have to be a case of 15+ claims grievances.

Start with a notice of intent to grieve, quoting the reference above. Hopefully, they can sort it out at the lowest possible level, before this gets to DCBA...and embarrassing to your CO.

I am also OUTCAN, on a deployment, on TD. I get the full meal rate (minus the provided breakfast- totally fair). No receipts required.

 

[ModlrMike]

Thanks for the quick responses.
Some of the guys have gone up to the OR without receipts already, and they got chastised by the clerks for making their job harder my having to do stat decs. It's seems to me that their trying to not honour policies is what's causing that.
I was just not sure if there wasn't some clause somewhere, where you can go on TD and not be entitled to anything "as-per-COs-discretion" or something of the sort.
I think this will have to be a case of 15+ claims grievances.

Let me guess: your Admin O isn't a Loggie.

 

[Lumber]

Let me guess: your Admin O isn't a Loggie.

Hey I'm not a Loggie (I'm a warfare loving MARS officer), but I've been given the job of AdminO and as a professional, I've taken it upon myself to know and understand the references, including nuances like the differences in meal claim-ability between chapters 5, 6, 7 and 8.

 

[ModlrMike]

Hey I'm not a Loggie (I'm a warfare loving MARS officer), but I've been given the job of AdminO and as a professional, I've taken it upon myself to know and understand the references, including nuances like the differences in meal claim-ability between chapters 5, 6, 7 and 8.

No disrespect intended, you clearly are doing what you're supposed to. After over 35 years of service however, my observation holds true more often than not.

 

[Pusser]

I am a loggie and I've been around a long time.  Compensation and benefits is one of my specialties and I've personally done a lot of international TD.

The only time where receipts are required is if there is no meal rate listed here: http://www.njc-cnm.gc.ca/directive/app_d.php?lang=eng.  So, unless the meal at the location you are going to is marked with an asterisk (*), they should simply give you the rate shown without demanding a receipt.  Check the table.  Even countries where all cities are not listed, there is always an "other" location.  The most common *meals are breakfasts and this is usually in locations where breakfast is traditionally provided with the accommodation (and would, therefore, not be claimable unless you had a compelling reason why you couldn't eat the meal provided).

As an example, if you are going anywhere in Afghanistan, you would need receipts for all meals, but if you were going to Tirana, Albania, you would only need a receipt for breakfast.

To demand receipts when not required is the epitome of institutional dickishness, not to mention incredibly labour intensive.

 

[Uboa]

Thanks for all the in-depth responses. I think I have a way forward, and the other guys are going to appreciate it too. One note and that random piece of paper they included mentioned getting per diem rates while at hotels(minus breakfast), and having to provide receipts only when staying in barracks. This is even when the meal situation is the same for either (minus breakfasts at hotels, of course). I already know this is utter fabrication, as accommodations and per diem entitlements are two completely separate things (unless of course, there are cooking establishments or meals provided). But yeah, reading all this RIGHT before leaving put a lot of undue stresses on everyone, and is potentially creating a lot of work for our OR. It wasn't a very good decision for any party involved, unfortunately.
Thanks again people!

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Living in barracks has absolutely nothing to do with with your meal rates. Whether or not you get the full meal rate for your country is entirely dependent on what feeding facilities are provided.

If in your situation, there is a publically funded dining facility and you are provided a meal card, but choose to eat on the economy, you are obviously on your own. But from what you have described, this does not sound like the case.

Pusser (above) got it right.

 

[Lumber]

No disrespect intended, you clearly are doing what you're supposed to. After over 35 years of service however, my observation holds true more often than not.

None taken! I was just standing up for us non-loggies. 

 

[captloadie]

Before everyone gets bent out of shape and submits their NOI's, did anyone ask the reason they implemented this requirement to provide receipts for meals while staying in barracks? I can think of one very specific reason: The CFTDI states in Chap 5 that rations shall be used whenever available. Perhaps the rations provided at the base were not considered up to standard, therefore the chain of command deemed it acceptable for members to eat at an establishment of their choice and would be reimbursed actual and reasonable expenses. Getting the receipts shows that they weren't just trying to put money in the pocket of the troops. I highly doubt the clerks or any competent person acting as the Admin O, would choose to go the receipt route otherwise.

Fighting this could lead to the next group of guys being ordered to eat on base, in a prearranged payment agreement with the host nation chow hall. Think about that before submitting the NOI.

 

[Lumber]

Thanks for all the in-depth responses. I think I have a way forward, and the other guys are going to appreciate it too. One note and that random piece of paper they included mentioned getting per diem rates while at hotels(minus breakfast), and having to provide receipts only when staying in barracks. This is even when the meal situation is the same for either (minus breakfasts at hotels, of course). I already know this is utter fabrication, as accommodations and per diem entitlements are two completely separate things (unless of course, there are cooking establishments or meals provided). But yeah, reading all this RIGHT before leaving put a lot of undue stresses on everyone, and is potentially creating a lot of work for our OR. It wasn't a very good decision for any party involved, unfortunately.
Thanks again people!

I am a loggie and I've been around a long time.  Compensation and benefits is one of my specialties and I've personally done a lot of international TD.

Pusser, I think you can answer a question I have on the highlighted bit.

When a member is in shacks and on ration strength, but has to eat on the economy for valid reasons, do they have to provide a receipt (or stat dec), and get reimbursed only that amount, or do they just get the meal rate? Does it vary depending on the chapter of travel?

 

[Pusser]

Pusser, I think you can answer a question I have on the highlighted bit.

When a member is in shacks and on ration strength, but has to eat on the economy for valid reasons, do they have to provide a receipt (or stat dec), and get reimbursed only that amount, or do they just get the meal rate? Does it vary depending on the chapter of travel?

In this particular case, yes.  The reference is one of the notes to para 4 of CFAO 36-14 (this CFAO is @#$%! complicated) .  The gist of it is that when a member is entitled to rations at public expense or is on ration strength and cannot be provided with a meal from a public source (e.g. he can't make it to the mess), then he is entitled to be reimbursed actual and reasonable expenses for the meal.  You need a receipt to prove the "actual" expense and the "reasonable" part is the TB approved rate for that meal at that location.  A good example would be a member who is tasked away from the base over lunch hour (and for some reason can't get a box lunch) and can't make it back in time for lunch - he goes to Subway, gets lunch and gets reimbursed what he paid for it.  However, if the same guy chooses to spend the day at the zoo on Saturday and so doesn't go to the mess for lunch, he's on his own dime for that (although, he should be able to request and draw a box lunch).

 

[Uboa]

Before everyone gets bent out of shape and submits their NOI's, did anyone ask the reason they implemented this requirement to provide receipts for meals while staying in barracks? I can think of one very specific reason: The CFTDI states in Chap 5 that rations shall be used whenever available. Perhaps the rations provided at the base were not considered up to standard, therefore the chain of command deemed it acceptable for members to eat at an establishment of their choice and would be reimbursed actual and reasonable expenses. Getting the receipts shows that they weren't just trying to put money in the pocket of the troops. I highly doubt the clerks or any competent person acting as the Admin O, would choose to go the receipt route otherwise.

Fighting this could lead to the next group of guys being ordered to eat on base, in a prearranged payment agreement with the host nation chow hall. Think about that before submitting the NOI.

Not really. The reason I got was that the det CO wanted to try something new. that said, the local mess was actually very good. but they gave us the option to eat there or in a commercial establishment. Being ordered to eat on base would have been better, as people are (theoretically, according to our or) out of money since they lost receipts.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Not really. The reason I got was that the det CO wanted to try something new. that said, the local mess was actually very good. but they gave us the option to eat there or in a commercial establishment. Being ordered to eat on base would have been better, as people are (theoretically, according to our or) out of money since they lost receipts.

What you have just said is....puzzling, to say the least.

Publically funded Rations either are/are not provided on deployments. There is no (that I am aware of) third way where you get a choice is the matter (to eat in the mess or just blow that off and claim the meal).

I am now confused by what you have posted.

 

[kev994]

What you have just said is....puzzling, to say the least.

Publically funded Rations either are/are not provided on deployments. There is no (that I am aware of) third way where you get a choice is the matter (to eat in the mess or just blow that off and claim the meal).

I am now confused by what you have posted.

Total speculation, but in 'Mercia the rations are not at public expense, you need to pay the price of the raw goods, so it's comically cheap but not technically free.

 

[SupersonicMax]

Total speculation, but in 'Mercia the rations are not at public expense, you need to pay the price of the raw goods, so it's comically cheap but not technically free.

Having been on several TDs at US bases, there was sometimes a contract in place that allowed us to eat there, as if we were on ration strenght.  If we planned or flew over a meal period, we were reimbursed actual and reasonable expenses.

When there was no contract in place, we would get full meal allowance.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Having been on several TDs at US bases, there was sometimes a contract in place that allowed us to eat there, as if we were on ration strenght.  If we planned or flew over a meal period, we were reimbursed actual and reasonable expenses.

When there was no contract in place, we would get full meal allowance.

I have been in similar situations.