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Our Great GG.

  • Thread starter Thread starter Kunu
  • Start date Start date
Boydfish said:
Except that would effectively neuter the provincial governments.   Since the provinces make the confederation, not the other way around, it makes more sense to keep each province's government intact and trim out the GG instead.

On a purely practical level, making each provincial Premier a "mini Head of State" instead of just the head of Government for their Province would not make any difference for the Confederation, unless you absolutely want to maintain the fiction that each Province is actually a independent State. 

I dont' now how it is in other Provinces but our LG is just a big waste of taxpayers money, even more so, all thing being equal, then the GG .  Having 11 representatives of the Queen in the country might have been a good idea in the days of dirt roads and horse carts but it's no longer  a necessity.
 
First of all, I want to make it clear that despite my handle I am in no way related to Ms. Clarkson.
While I have some problems with the current GG, most of them I think come down to a case of her taking the job just a little too seriously. It's true that she's done wonderful work as C-in-C of the Canadian Forces, but other initiatives like her trans-Polar junket were way over the top. IMHO it's a case of her getting just a little carried away with the regal role.
But to bring this discussion back to the initial story, I find it VERY hard to take complaints about the vice-regal spending seriously when they come from a group of MPs who have the cushiest pay, benefits and pension plan of any elected representatives in the western world. To the federal government, $19-million is pocket change and while I don't always agree with the way Ms. Clarkson spends that money, I feel it's far better spent on her than on the tax-free salary, expenses and etc we waste on a know-nothing windbag like Carolyn Parrish...
 
On a purely practical level, making each provincial Premier a "mini Head of State" instead of just the head of Government for their Province would not make any difference for the Confederation, unless you absolutely want to maintain the fiction that each Province is actually a independent State.

It's more than simply a question of how loosely or tightly bound the confederation is, but more that the provincial governments are vastly more important than the confederal one.  I also don't think that it's a fiction and can assure that in a strictly technical sense, yes, they are independent states.

dont' now how it is in other Provinces but our LG is just a big waste of taxpayers money, even more so, all thing being equal, then the GG .  Having 11 representatives of the Queen in the country might have been a good idea in the days of dirt roads and horse carts but it's no longer  a necessity.

I agree that having 11 representatives seems a bit excessive.  The question then comes "Which do we get rid of?".  In the end, the choice is the GG or the LGGs.  Remember, those 11 positions do not sit in splendid isolation, they sit as you've said, the de facto heads of state for 11 different governments.  If you eliminate the LGGs, you'd also need to either eliminate those 10 governments entirely or combine the duties of those LGGs into the GG.

For the first choice, not bloody likely, as the Canadian government appears unable to handle the duties that British Columbians delegate to them now and the provincial government is the only government that I get to actually have a voice in, much like anybody who lives west of the Great Lakes.  The second choice is equally unworkable, as the GG would be run off thier feet and placed in numerous conflicts of interest:  The interests of British Columbia and the interests of Canada are not uniformly parallel, nor are the interests of Alberta or Newfoundland & Labrador, for that matter.  Each province needs a head of state that will put the interests of that province above all else.

On the other hand, the GG is simply the head of one government.  It is far easier to divide up the duties of 1 among 10 than pile the duties of 10 on 1.  Why couldn't the LGG of British Columbia give royal assent to a bill passed by the Canadian house?  The method of how it would be determined which LGG would sign an act of Parliament could be any one of a numerous ways, but my preference would be to have it done by province of origin of the original sponsoring member of Parliament.  For example, if Paul Martin introduces and has passed an Act or Bill, it would be signed into law by the Quebec LGG.  If Randy White introduces a bill and it is passed, the British Columbian LGG gives it royal assent and so on and so on.

The other big duties of the GG, "dropping the writ" and appointing the PM, could also be handled by the LGGs via a simple vote system.  The PM would be elected by the LGGs and the house would be dissolved by a vote by the LGGs to do so.
 
Boydfish said:
Each province needs a head of state that will put the interests of that province above all else.

that the provincial governments are vastly more important than the confederal one.   I also don't think that it's a fiction and can assure that in a strictly technical sense, yes, they are independent states.

« Technically » independent states who relinquished many of their powers to a central government, who has been, over the last 137 years became the de facto dominant political body instead of just an emanation of the Provinces.   Those 10 independent states still have no way of amending their partnership and look at the fuss when one tries to get away...

I wouldn't personably combine the functions of the LG's   with those of the GG : I would get rid of their function entirely.   I understand the role of the Queen representatives in our political system but   apart from giving assent to bills, is there a meaningful functions for a LG ?   Perhaps the one in Quebec is the worst example of the lot but I don't see do a lot outside her purely symbolical functions.   To paraphrase JKF, « What can your LG do for you ? »    Call me too materialistic but is their vice-regal status (and the expenses that go with it) really justified ?    

Boydfish said:
The other big duties of the GG, "dropping the writ" and appointing the PM, could also be handled by the LGGs via a simple vote system.   The PM would be elected by the LGGs and the house would be dissolved by a vote by the LGGs to do so.

Isn't that a more complicated system to get to the same result ? Unless you want them to b able to vote against a Bill, in which case you're opening a whole new can of worms....
 
Sorry for those who are reasoning this through, but I need to go off on a tangent for this post

hey rca, how ya know the perks get better the higher ya go,??answer/pigs at the trough are fatter.just another sound bight for my collection  ...  but with the gov wastin so much of our money with no regard for regular citizens

You better explain this one before I misunderstand.

And in your opinion who "regular citizens" - Archie Bunker.

 
My venom isn't directed at the GG. It is directed at wasteful spending. In my opinion, the artist earlier refereed to in this post did not deserve 15 K of taxpayers money. The circumpolar trip was originally budgeted at 1 million, and later was announced that it cost over 5 million.

1 Billion gun registry
1 Billion HRDC misappropriation
1.6 Billion missing in aboriginal affairs
42+ Billion surplus of EI
100 million sponsorship
Atlantic Accord promise, spin and threats,
200+ charges against liberal appointed immigration officials in Quebec, and the most recent "Stripper Gate."

My frustration does not come from partisanship, but rather naivety. We walk each day amongst heroes. The teachers who do Herculean tasks with famished budgets, volunteers who give their time selflessly and each of us who try to do the right thing regardless of the consequences. It shouldn't be too much to ask that we expect more from elected officials. The GG unfortunately is an innocent casualty of IMHO the government's decline.

My wife and I paid over 20K in taxes last year. We worked very hard to make sure our family has what it needs to succeed. I find it difficult to comprehend the forementioned budget bylines. IMHO questioning some of these "expenses" including some of the GG's budget is not treachery but rather responsible. The GG is part of the Canada I am preparing to serve.
 
excuse me boys,mind if me and mike finish are dance.mike your pretty quick on the keys i'll give you that.i have to be honest typin,spellin,aint my strong pts.i went to a battle in the mid 80's before political correctness came into affect,what year did you start secretarial school.you assumed alot about me in your reply so i reveiwed  some of yours.heres what i assume about you,you like to threaten to lock thread if members dissagree with your opinion,try to intimidate an put the run on members.or simply just digrade their charactor.you do contribute alot of good info don't get me wrong,but you can be quite the pompous little ass.i got a serious ques for ya,why did ya tell me what you do for a livin,were you braggin or complainin????i mean rely what do ya gross 40-50 grand, what perks free parkin ???that ain,t much ta live on bye.seriously calgary is not cheap to live in,i been there,i hope you make more.as a matter of fact there's a 5050 chance i'll be workin in fort mac come jan.we'll have to hook up i like the bar thats got the mini put golf in it,can't remember name.(keep reply civil this time,i got feelins)hey acorn you understand this reply or do i gotta get ya a translater??????quick one of you kids do a spell check on olebubba ::)
 
rca/ regular citizen is the guy that pays the fiddler so the politicians can have there dance.what did ya think i meant.you and your tangents,what are you havin a fit of nerves.need an explanation for that???
 
« Technically » independent states who relinquished many of their powers to a central government, who has been, over the last 137 years became the de facto dominant political body instead of just an emanation of the Provinces.

I don't quite agree with the "dominant" nature of the confederal government, but a great deal of that is likely perspective:  I'm a British Columbian, so the comings and goings of the Canadian government in Ottawa are both distant and irrelevant to me.

Those 10 independent states still have no way of amending their partnership and look at the fuss when one tries to get away...

I'd disagree with that.  The amount of "fuss" is quite tiny in comparitive terms.  West of the Great Lakes, the perception of Quebec exiting confederation is best described as "We're not letting you leave the table until you settle your portion of the restaurant bill".  In comparison, most other similar political constructs like the confederation would have had a shooting war(Ex. The US Civil War).

Another part of the problem is that even the most ardent Quebec seperatist has to admit that without the billions in direct aid heaped on top of the billions of indirect aid that the rest of the confederation pours into Quebec annually, Quebec isn't viable as a province, let alone a real independent nation state without some pretty major changes in the way they live.  None of that even includes that they would need to take at least a per capita percentage of the debt of the confederation.

Both of the referendums have not asked if they want out of the confederation, instead asking if they can "demand" something called "sovereignty-association".

The speed and ease in which a province can walk out on the confederation will not be shown in a "have not" like Quebec; they lack the ability to even seriously ask for it.  When an Alberta or British Columbia, places that are rich and have established cultures, leave the confederation, it will be blindingly fast and there will be even less fuss than the Quebec song and dance of the last couple of decades.

I wouldn't personably combine the functions of the LG's  with those of the GG : I would get rid of their function entirely.  I understand the role of the Queen representatives in our political system but  apart from giving assent to bills, is there a meaningful functions for a LG ?  Perhaps the one in Quebec is the worst example of the lot but I don't see do a lot outside her purely symbolical functions.  To paraphrase JKF, « What can your LG do for you ? »   Call me too materialistic but is their vice-regal status (and the expenses that go with it) really justified ?

The LGGs have exactly the same role as the GG.  They drop the writ for the Legislatures, Parliaments, etc in each province.  Most people forget that "Premier" is simply the french translation for "Prime Minister" and that the provincial government essentially mirror the confederal one.  In fact, until the 1960's, BC referred to it's as "Prime Minister", not Premier.  In other words, if you can justify a GG, you have automatic justification for the LGGs.  I don't agree that the reverse is true, however.

I know that BC's LGGs have been kept hopping, what with British Columbia's cultural predeliction for "dynamic government"(If you can't see the grin on my face over the internet, rest assured it's there.).  If the PM of BC isn't under arrest, under investigation or under his lawyer's advice not answering questions, they're vacationing in Hawaii.  I know that the LGG in BC hinted strongly to Clark that if he didn't resign, the Legislature would be dissolved out from under him.  Vander Zalm was told point blank get out or get shoved out.

In terms of justification, they provide an apolitical executive authority.
 
A bit late on this one, but has anyone pointed out that the GG will be reigned in by a massive...2.5% budget cut. Depending on how you do the figuring, DND has seen its budget cut by 23-25%, and the real purchasing power drop by almost 50% in the last decade. (Oh, and we still have to provide the Challenger jets as well)

If we want to really get rid of deficits and debts, then ALL government departments need to be put on the same diet, or we have to examine how we do business as a nation very carefully, and decide what we need, what we can do without, and what is the best way to deliver those services that have been marked as needed (hint; government monopoly is the system we need to replace).

While the GG may provide both a symbolic and real role in the Canadian government, she too needs to scale back to something we al can afford.
 
a-majoor - agree.

bubba - signal weak and unreadable, unintelligible garble - say again
 
rca /taxpayer is what i meant by regular citizen.back to topic,a-majoor excellent post could'nt agree more.
 
"The Governor General's role is built on six major themes:

Representing the Crown in Canada
Promoting Canadian Sovereignty
Celebrating Excellence
Encouraging National Identity, National Unity and Moral Leadership "


Mortar Guy,

Thank you for posting this. It's good that you have been able to post as an informed insider, and personally reading from you about how hard she works illustrates that she is isn't neglecting some of her duties. I'll just throw this one question out though...which part of the above 6 roles have anything to do with an international 'Aren't we great?" trip?

Upon further examination of her 'Roles', raises a few other points. (Kinda looks like a PDR, doesn't it?)


- Representing the crown in Canada

Kinda says it all there. IN Canada. Do circumpolar trips accomplish this?


- Promoting Canadian soverignty

Has she been doing much these days defending our interests WRT our sovereignty disputes? I'm thinking specifically Hans Island and the border dispute along the Yukon/Alaska border. Did she get the opportunity to discuss Hans Island during the circumpolar trip at all? It seems as part of her job she should have.

- Celebrating excellence

This one kinda explains itself. Medals, awards, Order of Canada-type stuff...Was this the part of her job that was used to justify the circumpolar trip? 

- Encouraging National Identity

Who is she supposed to encourage...other nations or Canadian citizens?

- Moral Leadership

Ah. My favourite. Despite government budget surplusses, cutbacks and 'tightening the belt' are the norm with our government. Shouldn't our own Commander in Chief do the same and demonstrate a little leadership? Whats good for the goose, right? Personally, I feel that if she's supposed to represent and command the Canadian Forces, it isn't right that her budget only goes up while ours goes down. A $400,000 cut is more symbolic than anyhing else, especially when other departments have been absorbing some of her expenses.

My .02. Sir, if I'm off base here, I'd appreciate some feedback.

Cheers,

:dontpanic:
A.A.

 
Actually, the REAL head of state is the GG. I don't mean to embarass you but I think it is shameful how little most Canadians know about their system of government. The position holds considerable power - she signs all bills into law, she appoints the PM (very important in a minority government), she dissolves parliament, she signs commissioning scrolls, she is the CinC of the Armed Forces. All of these things mean power and influence (not as much as the PM or the US President but pretty decent by international standards - as far as HOSs go). Just because it is rarely used does not mean it does not exist.

I don't mean to be picky here, but the GG has absolutely no discretionary role to play whatever. It is true that the GG completes the legislative process, and that under s. 55 of the Constitution Act, 1867 the GG has the power to withold royal assent from a bill which has been enacted by both houses of parliament, and the power to withold a bill for the signification of the Queens pleasure; and by s. 56 gives to the Queen the power to dissallow a Canadian statute.
The "imperial conference"* in 1930 resolved that the powers of reservation and dissallowance must never be exercised. As long as the cabinet holds the confidence of parliament, there is no circumstance which would justify in constitutional law a refusal of assent, a reservation of a bill, or a British disallowance.** That leaves only confidence motions in the house of commons. 


*The imperial conference in 1930 produced an agreement that changes in royal styles and title could only be made with the consent of the commonwealth countries.

** [British disallowance stems from the fact that in a strict legal sense, our consitution takes its legal authority from the Canada Act, 1982- an act of the British Parliament!! If the Brits repealed the Canada Act, 1982, we would not have the Constitution Act, 1867 (the BNA Act, 1867 as amended) Since 1982, the Brit parliament cannot amend the constitution, but theoretically they could extinguish it by repealing the Canada Act. We would be an instantaneous republic with no say in the matter.]   

Cheers.
 
The G.G. is the Head of State but a powerless and formal one at that but can take power if things fail and can be the Head of Government until an election and a new Government is formed,as did happen in Australia a few years ago.

The G.G. is our safety valve (as I like to call the postion).
 
Whiskey 601 - OK, you clearly know your constitutional history! However, you didn't really refute what I was saying (if you were trying to refute it). The GG does have authority WRT the forming and dissolution of parliament. Anyway, fly shit from pepper. No, she isn't the equivalent of the US President, yes she is our de facto HOS.

Temperate Acorn - Great questions and I wish I had all the answers for you. I absolutely agree with you about spending and the need to show leadership. As for the rest, I don't know what to tell you except that every other country on this planet conducts state visits. We as Canadians have to decide if we want to continue to do this and how we will do it. If we decide it is something we want to do, then we should do it to the best of our abilities. If we decide not to do it, then we have to be ready to accept the consequences of that decision. I cannot apologize for the way international relations are conducted or the way HOS from different countries conduct themselves. My opinion is that it is important to form strong ties with countries we consider to be our friends and allies and one way of doing this is through State Visits. Just my opinion though, and this is what's great about democracies - everyone gets a say!

MG

 
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