Out-of-shape soldiers a 'national threat'

[Rifleman62]

RoyalDrew:

Great suggestion, I actually find it kind of funny that fitness is not tied to our promotion schemes yet things which have very little impact on our ability to fight wars like French proficiency and having multiple graduate degrees gives a person big time points.  Education is definitely important, especially at the higher levels of the officer corps but should the ability to function in both languages be held at a higher importance then physical fitness?

Heresy!!

Commonsense is not authorized.

 

[Canadian.Trucker]

How is promotion not tied to fitness? If you haven't passed the fit test, you can't get promoted. If you can't pass it after repeated attempts, you get released. They won't release you over a second language profile.

The application and focus on PT across the CAF though is not balanced, and as stated above we as a military are doing a poor job of making sure standards are maintained and physical fitness in the general sense is slipping.  The FORCE program is a joke, plain and simple because the standard is not increasing but is in fact decreasing.

 

[dapaterson]

The application and focus on PT across the CAF though is not balanced, and as stated above we as a military are doing a poor job of making sure standards are maintained and physical fitness in the general sense is slipping.  The FORCE program is a joke, plain and simple because the standard is not increasing but is in fact decreasing.

How is it decreasing?  The BFT was well-known as a way for fat, out-of shape people to avoid the EXPRES test, and the EXPRES test bore no relationship to any military tasks.

FORCE, at least, has face validity - lifiting loads and running.  The standard is set to meet what experts from the three environments have defined as the required abilities for all CF members regardless of age, gender or trade.

FORCE is not intended as a fitness challenge, or a light infantry assault standard, or a super-commando-ninja preparation.

The current binary method of fitness - pass/fail; promotable/not promotable works fine.  If certain trades require higher fitness levels or scalable fitness levels they can work to establish that.

But at higher levels of leadership, fitness is important, but should not be a determinant for promotion.  Which is more important for a Bde commander: how much he or she can benchpress, or how well they can think, plan, and work with others?

(We should, of course, add extra PER points for driving a Harley...)

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

How is it decreasing?  The BFT was well-known as a way for fat, out-of shape people to avoid the EXPRES test, and the EXPRES test bore no relationship to any military tasks.

FORCE, at least, has face validity - lifiting loads and running.  The standard is set to meet what experts from the three environments have defined as the required abilities for all CF members regardless of age, gender or trade.

FORCE is not intended as a fitness challenge, or a light infantry assault standard, or a super-commando-ninja preparation.

The current binary method of fitness - pass/fail; promotable/not promotable works fine.  If certain trades require higher fitness levels or scalable fitness levels they can work to establish that.

But at higher levels of leadership, fitness is important, but should not be a determinant for promotion.  Which is more important for a Bde commander: how much he or she can benchpress, or how well they can think, plan, and work with others?

(We should, of course, add extra PER points for driving a Harley...)

Agree with part of what you are saying; however, we have allowed the lethargic, sedentary ways of staffer's to permeate down to the troops on the ground where this becomes a real problem.  Nobody expects the Bde Comd to be able to outruck and outrun Cpl Bloggins but setting the example is important for the soldiers.  Does a soldier give a rats ass if I can speak french or have a masters degree in basket-weaving?  I would argue he does not but what he does care about is knowing his boss is going to give'er just as much as he is. 

If we allow this sort of atitude to exist in our HQs and amongst our upper echelons then it will trickle down to the people that matter to the organizations the most: the soldiers.  This will have real operational implications on our force.  We need to raise the bar of fitness at all levels and that requires setting a standard.  The FORCE test is a good starting state but we need to take this and tie it to the promotion cycle and I am not talking a simple pass/fail.  We need incentive levels like some have suggested in this thread.

We owe this to our soldiers. 

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

The application and focus on PT across the CAF though is not balanced, and as stated above we as a military are doing a poor job of making sure standards are maintained and physical fitness in the general sense is slipping.  The FORCE program is a joke, plain and simple because the standard is not increasing but is in fact decreasing.

We do a poor job of enforcing standards not just in PT but in general.  I have a funny story about this.  Back in 2006 when I did my IAP/BOTC (BMOQ for everyone nowadays) my serial had a candidate join us for BOTC.  This was his second try on the course and he ended up failing again.  This guy was trying to become a SIG O but he was probably one of the thickest guys I have ever met.  The things he did were the stuff of legend and his antics are still brought up every so often whenever I meet people who know him.  He was a DEO while I was ROTP so after I finished the course I headed back to school while he sat around in PAT in St Jean. 

What do you know four years later after I finished university and all my training at the infantry school and am posted to Bn I run into this character yet again, only guess what?  He is still in the training system!  I later found out that he had eventually passed BMOQ, failed CAP a couple of times then passed, failed his SIG O Ph 3 then passed and was now on OJT in Petawawa waiting to do Phase 4.

Yes from 2006-2010 this guy was a DEO in the trg system who had failed courses multiple times and had shown zero leadership ability and still had not completed his trades training yet we decided that it was a good idea to keep him around.  I am still scratching my head at this  ???

 

[dapaterson]

I fully agree that we owe our soldiers quality leadership.  And we need to inculcate a culture of fitness.

PER points are one possible method to reinforce that; I know there is ongoing work to examine ways to introduce incentives into the FORCE evaluation.

But commanders have other tools as well - both carrots and sticks.  Carrot: Offer a day of short to anyone who beats all the CO's times on the FORCE test.  Stick: On a subordinate's PER, under leadership, note that only 2/3 of his pers passed the test on their first try.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I really don't think PER points are the way to go.  Simply raise the bar as a standard for everyone and let those who cant achieve it go through the counseling/administrative, remedial PT and then release process. 

When people see they wont be able to pay their mortgage because they lost sight of their wedding tackle they will eat less and move more very quickly.

We already have a PER system that is broken because PT/Volunteerism/OPMEs/Secondary Duties ect have become the tipping point.  I think we can all give numerous examples of incompetence who reached leadership levels because the do everything but there actual paid profession well.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

I fully agree that we owe our soldiers quality leadership.  And we need to inculcate a culture of fitness.

PER points are one possible method to reinforce that; I know there is ongoing work to examine ways to introduce incentives into the FORCE evaluation.

But commanders have other tools as well - both carrots and sticks.  Carrot: Offer a day of short to anyone who beats all the CO's times on the FORCE test.  Stick: On a subordinate's PER, under leadership, note that only 2/3 of his pers passed the test on their first try.

The only problem with this is it is not an organizational standard and is not applicable to the entire force.  I have seen this methodology work in specific units but it is leadership dependent.  The simple fact is, sometimes people need to be told what to do and need to know that their are consequences for not following through with an order.  Tying fitness to promotions would be a very easy way to achieve this.

On the topic of PERs, different corps write PERs differently.  For instance, I would not be allowed to write that on a persons PER in the infantry because a PER cannot have negative language in it at all.  If I wrote that it would be torn up and I would be ordered to re-draft.  I would be able to write this on a PDR but PDR's are not what are brought up in merit boards so this is a non-starter.

 

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

I really don't think PER points are the way to go.  Simply raise the bar as a standard for everyone and let those who cant achieve it go through the counseling/administrative, remedial PT and then release process. 

When people see they wont be able to pay their mortgage because they lost sight of their wedding tackle they will eat less and move more very quickly.

We already have a PER system that is broken because PT/Volunteerism/OPMEs/Secondary Duties ect have become the tipping point.  I think we can all give numerous examples of incompetence who reached leadership levels because the do everything but there actual paid profession well.

Aye and since we now pay people very nice salaries we should expect more from them in their actual work.  When we paid people SFA to show up and do the business ok sure mediocrity had its place but now that we are paying people very nice wages with very good benefits their should be an expectation that we set the bar a little higher.  If I am a Captain making 80K a year then I damn well better be fit to do my job. 

 

[Kat Stevens]

I really don't think PER points are the way to go.  Simply raise the bar as a standard for everyone and let those who cant achieve it go through the counseling/administrative, remedial PT and then release process. 

When people see they wont be able to pay their mortgage because they lost sight of their wedding tackle they will eat less and move more very quickly.

We already have a PER system that is broken because PT/Volunteerism/OPMEs/Secondary Duties ect have become the tipping point.  I think we can all give numerous examples of incompetence who reached leadership levels because the do everything but there actual paid profession well.

Points on PERs will result in making official a long standing policy.  Cpl x is moderately effective at his job, but can bench press a Buick and run an antelope into the ground.  Cpl y is technically spot on at his job, stays extra hours to ensure his equipment is good to go to the extent he can, but maybe can't crack off 250 one armed push ups, and is maybe in the rear of the pack on runs.  Who gets promoted?  I know what I saw...

 

[Halifax Tar]

Points on PERs will result in making official a long standing policy.  Cpl x is moderately effective at his job, but can bench press a Buick and run an antelope into the ground.  Cpl y is technically spot on at his job, stays extra hours to ensure his equipment is good to go to the extent he can, but maybe can't crack off 250 one armed push ups, and is maybe in the rear of the pack on runs.  Who gets promoted?  I know what I saw...

I'm unsure of your point.  I feel like you echoing what I said but your anecdote is clouding your brevity and point.

 

[Kat Stevens]

How was I unclear?  Moderate at their job superfit gym monkeys got promoted, while hard working technically proficient but physically moderate troops got overlooked.  I spent 23 years on the floor, I know it happened.  If you award extra points for super fitness, you make that an official policy, instead of the old underhanded way it was done.  Troops will inevitably start worrying more about the gym than the shop floor.

 

[Halifax Tar]

How was I unclear?  Moderate at their job superfit gym monkeys got promoted, while hard working technically proficient but physically moderate troops got overlooked.  I spent 23 years on the floor, I know it happened.  If you award extra points for super fitness, you make that an official policy, instead of the old underhanded way it was done.

Thank you for clarifying for me.  I fully agree with you.

 

[Canadian.Trucker]

How is it decreasing?  The BFT was well-known as a way for fat, out-of shape people to avoid the EXPRES test, and the EXPRES test bore no relationship to any military tasks.

FORCE, at least, has face validity - lifiting loads and running.  The standard is set to meet what experts from the three environments have defined as the required abilities for all CF members regardless of age, gender or trade.

FORCE is not intended as a fitness challenge, or a light infantry assault standard, or a super-commando-ninja preparation.

The current binary method of fitness - pass/fail; promotable/not promotable works fine.  If certain trades require higher fitness levels or scalable fitness levels they can work to establish that.

But at higher levels of leadership, fitness is important, but should not be a determinant for promotion.  Which is more important for a Bde commander: how much he or she can benchpress, or how well they can think, plan, and work with others?

(We should, of course, add extra PER points for driving a Harley...)

I agree with most of your points except for the questioning of the standard decreasing.  Within our unit I have seen a 58 year old individual that has not done regular PT for the last 15 years ace the FORCE test with no difficulty, but he would struggle on BFT's and definitely could not cut it in the field environment.  Granted this individuals trade is not field oriented, but how is it a true test of physical fitness when those personnel that are severely out of shape have the ability to pass the standind physical fitness requirement with no issues.  I know the flip side of the argument is that they did in fact pass the PT test so they can't be that out of shape, but when the standard is low enough is it a proper standard at all?

Aye and since we now pay people very nice salaries we should expect more from them in their actual work.  When we paid people SFA to show up and do the business ok sure mediocrity had its place but now that we are paying people very nice wages with very good benefits their should be an expectation that we set the bar a little higher.  If I am a Captain making 80K a year then I damn well better be fit to do my job. 

I agree completely.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

How was I unclear?  Moderate at their job superfit gym monkeys got promoted, while hard working technically proficient but physically moderate troops got overlooked.  I spent 23 years on the floor, I know it happened.  If you award extra points for super fitness, you make that an official policy, instead of the old underhanded way it was done.  Troops will inevitably start worrying more about the gym than the shop floor.

This most definitely happens but how would you go about fixing it then Kat or should it be fixed at all?  I think we all agree to a point that their is a fitness problem in the CF but how do we go about changing the culture?  I personally think this needs to start at the very top of the organization with policy and orders that are achievable and enforceable but I am open to other ideas.

 

[Kat Stevens]

I'm too long away to have anything really useful to say.  When I joined the army, PT in the regiment was considered a necessary evil, and any viable job related reason not to do PT was readily accepted.  The accepted philosophy was that vehicles and equipment came first.  We still did the old 2X10 twice a year, but there was very little prep for it, usually told on a Monday that you were doing it on Thursday and Friday.  We did the annual PT test consisting of mile-and-a-half run, push ups, sit ups, and chinups, end of story.  I don't recall too many failures, but then I was a know nothing sprog sapper.  I went on an out of regiment posting to BOps for 3 years where pt was very much not encouraged, as there was always "real" work to be done.  I then went to 4 CER, and somewhere in my 3 extra-regimental years, PT became all important, to the point of my previous posts.  The logical thing, to my poor dumb corporals brain, is to raise the physical requirements across the board, but make the testing more performance focused, rather than gym rat centric.  Anyone can carry two sandbags... can you do it continuously for 30 minutes?  An hour?  Two?  outside of PT and testing, and those nasty flight swings at CABC, I've never done a chinup in my daily life as a soldier.

 

[The_Falcon]

You mean like this:http://www.outofregs.com/index.php?page=archives&id=95

And?  I never said other nations don't have tubbies, or that they don't wear OTW shirts.  Those who do wear those shirts tend be in the middle of travelling, the majority of the Canadians I see here, work here, some in the same building as me.  And if I was so inclined I could post several pictures of the number of grossly overweight Canadians.  I have only seen 1 American here in 10 months that looked like that, and ironically they were also US Army (although they could have been Airforce since they share the same uniform overseas).  I have not seen a single out of shape Marine, during my time here.

 

[McG]

There are no chin-ups in the PT test.

But, I would like to see some measure of endurance returned to the test, if only for land ops pers. I have previously described a FORCE test that could then launch straight into a BFT.

 

[Kat Stevens]

There are no chin-ups in the PT test.

But, I would like to see some measure of endurance returned to the test, if only for land ops pers. I have previously described a FORCE test that could then launch straight into a BFT.

As I said, I've been out a long time.

 

[McG]

... I could post several pictures of the number of grossly overweight Canadians. 

A few of the recently returned R2 pers have told me that Fat Canadian jokes were popular amongst our coalition partners.