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Out with the devil you know and in with.-Iraqi Shite Power- Article

You are with us or against us
vs.
Submit to Allah, the infidels (mostly aimed at Christians and Jews... but Buddhist, Hindu, etc. too I would imagine) are wrong and must be dealt with.

Wow thats a great point. People will argue that theres differences here and there but at a basic level i think it‘s the exact same rant.
 
Most of the buddies I‘ve had in the Military were not perfect. Well, buddies anywhere, for that matter. At some point, you and your chums form a bond, and there‘s an unspoken rule that you‘ll watch each others‘ back, and help each other out. Some of my buddies drank too much. Some were uncouth. Some were loud; some were arrogant. If it was too much, we didn‘t become buddies. I aligned myself with people who were similar-thinking and acting. Other people, I chose not to be friends with, and that‘s fine too. I didn‘t pretend to be someone‘s friend because they were popular, or strong, or had money. Now you and some of your buddies are in a bar. One of your pals gets attacked, and he squares off. By now there‘s a crowd gathering. The other guys‘ cronies, your bunch, and the onlookers. I never saw anyone debate much, whether the friends defense was excessive, whether he deserved it, whether he was justified. You stood side by side, if the guy was a jacka55, you told him after. Lets put all the political ins and outs, and strategic ramblings aside for a minute, and think about it on that level. If your friend didn‘t come to your aid, because he didn‘t think you were right, how would you feel? We‘re all armchair quarterbacks here; all experts. But consider it again, on it‘s most basic level. I‘m not saying the analogy is accurate, I‘m saying many Americans just see it as us not standing by them. Plain and simple. If the US is indeed an empire-building bully, then we shouldn‘t try to pass ourselves off as their friend. What if someone threatened Canada, and the US balked, for whatever reason? I think subconsciously, we expect them to look after us - well at least the average person. "We‘re safe, with the Yanks next door". Don‘t agree? Why don‘t we have a military big enough to defend ourselves against any threat, including the US? I can tell you something else - I am positive that many attitudes would be different, if Canada had been attacked. Watch the CN tower collapse on TV, and see what it does to your psyche. Regardless of whether the "US deserved it" like many seem to think - the politicians weren‘t attacked - innocent people were. People are scared, maybe paranoid, and rightfully so. Canada has had some misguided internal and foreign policies - do its citizens deserve to die, or live in fear? On the other hand, the avg American does forget how much Canada has done for them, and that we have helped, without blinking, on most occasions. There are indeed 2 sides to every story, with the truth usually somewhere in between. These are not necessarily my personal opinions - more of my observations. Interpretations on why people may feel the way they do. I saw F-16s flying CAPs over Phoenix, after 9-11. I lived 9-11, in the US. I have to believe it‘s different, when it is someone elses country. Seriously - imagine some Japanese radicals killing 3000 or so Canadian citizens, in a day, as payback for the internments.

My opinion? The US is far from perfect. Pick your friends, and stick with them. If they are not nice people, don‘t be their friends. Sorry for rambling, but I believe I have a unique perspective. Being a proud Canadian, living in the US, I have a good idea how the rest of the world views the US. I had stereotypes that ended up not being true. I also get to see Canada, how the US sees her. I get to hear people talk, on a daily basis. I‘m not reciting cliches, quotes, or soundbites from network news. What irritates me sometimes is recited opinions, or learned responses - not (my perception) original thought.

The kicker for me was Britain‘s commitment to this war. I doubt you could find 2 more politically opposite leaders than Bush or Blair. Blair faced a tremendous amount of opposition to his decision. Could he have had access to info that some of us on this board weren‘t privy to? The Govt was chastised for not doing more, pre 911. Now they‘re doing too much. What if a jar of whatever HAD gotten into the hands of a terrorist, and ultimately, New York, or some other city. Impossible? Unlikely? Who‘s willing to make that bet? Then what? Ooops, I guess we were wrong? No, we haven‘t eliminated the possibility - I believe we have reduced it. To this day, I am not positive that the US did the right thing. I think they did. My instincts say they did, but I‘m not positive. If I had a choice of mistakenly liberating an oppressed country, while limiting their involvement in terrorism OR "waiting to see" or "waiting for more info" I guess I‘d take the former. "RUSH" to war? Hussein had 12 years to comply. If the UNs demands were not reasonable, we should have debated it, 11 years ago.

Fire away, my learned friends... :p

:cdn:
 
Let‘s start back to 91.
Why was Saddam left in power?

Even though we in the West knew he was a evil b@!#$d,he was left in place to counter act Islamic ruled Iran.

What was not wanted back in 91 is happening now i.e.Islamic Cleric‘s gaining control.Also intel has it that Iranian Operitive‘s have infiltrated the country and are stirring the pot.
The below link is from the BBC via Jihadunspun.

http://www.jihadunspun.net/index-side_external.php?article=52933&list=/home.p


So much for Liberation and freedom!!!
So were do we draw the Line?
Another War?
 
Sapper Earl, I believe the issue of why Saddam was left in power was addressed on a previous thread.

Muskrat, great post. You expressed what I have been trying to say for a long time.
 
Thanks Infanteer - I‘m glad someone agrees with me! ;)
 
Let‘s start back to 91.
Why was Saddam left in power?
Don‘t want to beat a dead cat, but one thing comes to mind: "UN mandate"
In ‘91, the (UN) mandate was to liberate Kuwait. Period.
 
Carrying on with muskrat89 analogy, suppose you know your so called buddy is going into a bar to start a fight becuase he‘s a big mean fellow and likes to fight. Do you still follow just beacuase or do you tell him, hey hold on a sec.

I‘m just throwing this out. I totaly agree if your in the bar, and the fight starts, you back your buddies up.
 
RCA - That‘s my point, I guess. If he‘s a big mean guy that starts fights for no reason, I probably wouldn‘t be his friend in the first place. Or, maybe more accurate, I shouldn‘t be friends with him because its convenient, or he protects me, then get a change of heart when he goes after someone else. If the friend is the bully that some of us seem to think he his, then we should be standing up to him more.
 
I think the problem with the bar buddy analogy is that every 4 years our buddy may or may not experience a personality change... or lobotomy... or brain transplant... or infusion of super-brain power...

I mean, for the past decade or so, the buddy is pretty stable and we hang out and stuff... and the decade before that he would get into a couple of fights (Panama, Grenada) on his own and wouldn‘t think twice whether or not we helped him... now after this in this new 4 yr cycle he gives us ultimatums "help me pulp this guy (which I could do on my own) or we won‘t be friends any more -- and not just that, I‘ll hold a grudge". Okay, yes, someone torched his car on 9-11... and we helped him tear up the guy who did it‘s hangout no questions asked because Osama decided to install a big neon sign on his lawn that says "I did it"...
 
Muskrat, in the final analysis has it exactly right. You pick your friends over time, well in advance of the time your friendship is tested. Based on a long history of being together, you know whether your friend is reliable and good. And when he finds himself in trouble, you don‘t stand around and debate the niceties of whether he is right or wrong. He‘s your friend, and he deserves your support.

The recent happenings betwen us, our American friends, and the French remind me of something that happened years ago.

A number of years ago, a friend of mine had two customers, once company headed by a Frenchman and the other by an American. The Frenchman gave very specific directions about what was to be done, notwithstanding advice that perhaps it wouldn‘t work out the way it was intended. It didn‘t and as the difficulty became public, the Frenchman publicly blamed my friend and pulled his business, saying that he needed more comptency than my friend could offer (even though all my friend had only done what he was directed to do). The company headed by the American, who had every reason to bolt did not. The American called my friend and told him that where he came from, friends deserved loyalty, and asked what he could do to help. The next day, he placed a huge piece of business with my friend.

You stick with your friends. You are there for them. Doesn‘t mean you don‘t try to move them or change their mind. But when they need you, you are there for them. And if you aren‘t, then don‘t even think of calling yourself a friend.
 
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