Paid Physical Fitness Time?

[BinRat55]

Ok, BLUF - IMO, PT should be done every day, together. It fosters camaraderie, esprit de corps, promotes leadership, chain of command, health and fitness and competitiveness among each other. There will undoubtedly be times when it will be absolutely impossible to achieve this but we do our best. If it means starting the day earlier, sobeit. If it means ending the day later, sobeit.

What defines working hours? The fact that I do not have a signed leave pass means that I can be on duty at any time. Heck, I can say let's do PT every day from 1100 - 1200, back to work at 1300. We will be at reveille pde by 0720 and our dismissal pde will be at 1730H. PT is now "within" working hours.

Just my opinion.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

These blanket policies fron the top are just stupid.  Three different environments, three totally different requirements.  If you're combat arms, you need to be fit, full stop anf significant portion of your day should be spent training your body to be a well oiled war machine. 

Everyone else, well it's not as important.  Stop applying stupid blanket policies across the board because you have a desire to see everyone turn out looking like Clark Kent in uniform. 

 

[Sf2]

We will be at reveille pde by 0720 and our dismissal pde will be at 1730H.

What is this sorcery you speak of?  Sorry....seldom to many units confirm to a uniform work schedule where everyone can get together for the group hug.  Where i work - everyone is on a unique shift.  My BLUF - I order my guys to do 5 hrs per week.  I trust that they do it.....they feel guilty when they don't - because i instil the criticality of it.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I think this is where us Navy folk (I'm assuming you were Navy) are in discord with BinRat. I'm all for allowing, and even pushing PT during working hours (as much as I hate running more than anything, I was proud to finally run my first 10k after several month of 2-a-week mandatory runs). However, I really really hate the idea of coming into work early to do PT. Yes yes yes, technically we are members of the CAF 24/7. I don't know how to explain it better, BinRat. Maybe OGBD can explain it better, it's just not part of our culture to come into work early for something like PT. We ask people to stay late to get work done (such as during work up preps), but we'd never ask people to stay late to do PT.

Why would you have to come in earlier to go PT?  I go to PT at 8am, or 11am, or 2pm, or whenever it suits the schedule I am on that day or week.  I sure as hell don't come in early or stay late to do PT, it is part of my work day.  Just like the CDS Guidance to COs and the DAODs say it supposed to be.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Ok, BLUF - IMO, PT should be done every day, together. It fosters camaraderie, esprit de corps, promotes leadership, chain of command, health and fitness and competitiveness among each other. There will undoubtedly be times when it will be absolutely impossible to achieve this but we do our best. If it means starting the day earlier, sobeit. If it means ending the day later, sobeit.

But again, there is no requirement to make the work day longer to fit in PT.  My PT time is during the work day. 

What defines working hours? The fact that I do not have a signed leave pass means that I can be on duty at any time. Heck, I can say let's do PT every day from 1100 - 1200, back to work at 1300. We will be at reveille pde by 0720 and our dismissal pde will be at 1730H. PT is now "within" working hours.

Just my opinion.

Each unit is supposed to publish what it's 'normal working/duty day' hours are.  Ours are found in our Sqn Orders.

This is the order/regulation that you do NOT want to be published or known or exist if you show up for work at 0805hrs and are told you are "AWOL".  ;D

units who do the thing you are talking about to make PT 'within' working hours will probably experience people who are pissed or and have low GAFF.  Whats the point in that?  Why punish people because of a CF-wide directive? 

 

[BinRat55]

These blanket policies fron the top are just stupid.  Three different environments, three totally different requirements.  If you're combat arms, you need to be fit, full stop anf significant portion of your day should be spent training your body to be a well oiled war machine. 

Everyone else, well it's not as important.  Stop applying stupid blanket policies across the board because you have a desire to see everyone turn out looking like Clark Kent in uniform.

My difficulty lies with attempting to ascertain wether or not you're being sarcastic... you make a few funny statements here, but some valid ones as well? I did preface my post with "I completely understand that with the three elements there are three different roles..."

My desire is to have my troops pass the FORCE test and dismantle one more hurdle to promotion... not look like Clark Kent in uniform. Also, I am not the one "applying blanket policies" - the PT policy is CDS driven. I just wanted to weigh in on what "PT during working hours" was to me... in an ARMY environment...

If you think that the CDS and his policies rehysical training at not at your standards and you disagree, you have avenues to go down...

 

[Eye In The Sky]

These blanket policies fron the top are just stupid.  Three different environments, three totally different requirements.  If you're combat arms, you need to be fit, full stop anf significant portion of your day should be spent training your body to be a well oiled war machine. 

Everyone else, well it's not as important.  Stop applying stupid blanket policies across the board because you have a desire to see everyone turn out looking like Clark Kent in uniform.

There are other benefits to having a healthy bunch of folks even if they aren't pop-up targets.  Better ability to handle stress, fight off infections, the list goes on.  In my work environment, fitter people (according to the Aeromedical SMEs) perform better at altitude, will use up their smoke bottle slower in the event of a fire, etc.

The top policies (CDS Guidance to COs, DAODs) are general enough to get the point across without using language that ties the hands of anyone or making it so everyone 'runs with a ruck on'.  While not perfect, they get the point across.  All that needs to happen now, is for people to start FOLLOWING them.

 

[Pusser]

The whole idea of CDS message was that we as an organization needed to support fitness activities better than we were at that point (remember that this CANFORGEN came out quite awhile ago).  I don't think there was ever any intent to increase the length of the work day.  Instead though, I think it was meant to encourage supervisors to not limit personal PT time to the lunch hour.  I also don't think it was fully aimed at operational front line units wrapped up in operational front line things.  In many ways I've always thought the Army had this one right as PT is an integral part of their daily routine in garrison.  As OGBD said though, it has never been part of the Navy routine in home port.  However, I firmly believe it should be.  I've always argued that there is a lot of the day wasted on board ships in home port.  I think if we were a bit more clever about it, we could find a little extra time for folks to get out for some exercise.  My personal favourite way to do it though is to "commutercise." One of the things I loved about living in Ottawa was that I lived 13-17km from my office (depending on what building I was working in), which is a good distance to bicycle to and from work everyday.  I would simply report for work a little later than normal when I bicycled. 

 

[BinRat55]

But again, there is no requirement to make the work day longer to fit in PT.  My PT time is during the work day. 

Each unit is supposed to publish what it's 'normal working/duty day' hours are.  Ours are found in our Sqn Orders.

This is the order/regulation that you do NOT want to be published or known or exist if you show up for work at 0805hrs and are told you are "AWOL".  ;D

units who do the thing you are talking about to make PT 'within' working hours will probably experience people who are pissed or and have low GAFF.  Whats the point in that?  Why punish people because of a CF-wide directive?

Agreed - our "battle rhythm" or "daily schedule" is also published in the SOs. It does include PT from 0710 - 0830. BUT...

I still feel the need to explain that the OP wanted to know what "regular working hours" were and was time permitted within to do physical maintenance on one's body. I submit that we have proven, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that there is no real way to answer this question. Every unit is different based on element, mandate, mission and even traditions.  The commonality is that wether we like it or not, we all do it. When we are told.

I'm not Clark Kent in a uniform... I am Chuck Norris!!

 

[Eye In The Sky]

The DAODs and even the CDS Guidance to COs uses enough language that is somewhat general or vague, so that subordinate commanders at all levels have some leeway to 'make it happen'.  My experience at army units, HQs and TEs is that PT is easiest done 'in a group setting'.

In the airforce, my experience at least is PT is more of an 'individual' responsibility;  time is given/afforded to everyone, whether you take advantage of it or not is left for you to decide BUT you'd better pass your medical and your FORCE test when the time comes.  We just have way too many parts and people moving in different directions at different times to get every there at the same time BUT...having said that, last year my Sqn had organized Sqn PT last thing on Tues and Thurs afternoons.  If you weren't flying, in the box or at a medical or some other appointment you were expected to be there.  If there is a plane to launch or recover, well that still happens with the folks not involved going to Sqn PT.

That (IMO) is a CO of a rather busy flying Sqn making his best effort to follow the directives he has been given and how the CDS and the RCAF, etc want him to command his sqn.  "It won't be perfect but do the best you can."

 

[Lumber]

I do NOT need to work out every working day in order to pass the FORCE test. If I go for a nice hike on weekends (which is about all I've done in the past few months) I'm ready for the FORCE test. PT  should be about achieving  a level higher than the FORCE test,  because the FORCE test is not an obstacle.  :2c:

 

[Eye In The Sky]

It is for some people though.  That is the LCD for 'us' to use against those who waddle to the gym once a year for their (dreaded) PT test.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

There are other benefits to having a healthy bunch of folks even if they aren't pop-up targets.  Better ability to handle stress, fight off infections, the list goes on.  In my work environment, fitter people (according to the Aeromedical SMEs) perform better at altitude, will use up their smoke bottle slower in the event of a fire, etc.

The top policies (CDS Guidance to COs, DAODs) are general enough to get the point across without using language that ties the hands of anyone or making it so everyone 'runs with a ruck on'.  While not perfect, they get the point across.  All that needs to happen now, is for people to start FOLLOWING them.

I agree wholeheartedly with you.  The problem is that these blanket/general orders are vague to the point that they can essentially be ignored.  We've let the civilian work culture in Ottawa permeate down to the tactical level as far as PT is concerned in the military.

When my former CO showed up to the unit his first order was "PT will be from 8 to 10, everyone will do PT and nobody will be in their offices, the workday will still end at 1630 and we will not work longer, make it so!"

Some people grumbled but we got on with it and over the two years he was in command, the unit got a lot more fit and also a lot better overall. 

An organization that I think embodies the fitness culture we should emulate is the USMC.  Go to a Marine post and everyone from the Commanding General to the RMS Clerk is out doing PT, it's part of the battle rythm and you never see a fat marine in any trade.

We lose credibility instantly every time a soldier from another country sees a fat Canadian soldier.

 

[Navy_Pete]

:goodpost:

What he ^ said.

As a 1-in-2 director, I worked 7 hours on, 7 hours off, 5 hours on, 5 hours off. The 5 hours off I used to carry out my staff and divisional duties. The 7 hours off was often cut short by mandatory briefings, supper at one end, breakfast at the other, and a shower (sometimes). So when the question came up, "Do I work out and get 4.5hrs sleep tonight, or not workout and get 5.5 hours of sleep today", I 90% of the time chose the latter.

Also depends on the trade; for the technical side of the house, 730-4 is dedicated to supporting the fleet maintenance facility guys and ongoing work.  If they are doing double shifts or OT, that stretches out longer.

Really hard to do group PT because you can never get more then a few people off at once, but fully encourage people to go in drips and drabs as their schedule allows, and for a lot of us, that means lunchtime, and before/after work.  Occasionally we do group PT, but it's planned weeks out.

At sea, it's the same; people go when they are off watch as the schedule allows.  Sometimes if enough things are broken, you end up working off watch.  And depending on the ships' schedule, your 'off watch' time can consist of mandatory attendance at all kinds of lectures, drills, group training, etc, so it really all depends on the Ops tempo on what you can do.

Kind of a double edged sword though, as it's easier to work these long grinding schedules while your fit, but working the long grinding schedules doesn't really allow time for PT...

Navy culture is slowly shifting to people generally being fitter, the food being healthier etc, but still pretty difficult to make PT mandatory every day, do it in a group, and keep the ship actually able to go to sea while doing it all during normal working hours.  Really the most practical way for everyone to be able to exercise is to let people exercise when they can fit it in, provide lots of little nooks and crannies with some kind of exercise equipment, and encourage everyone to go whenever they can, with the odd group activity to build the team up.

 

[BinRat55]

Once again, I apologize in advance if anyone takes offence to this, however we are having a REALLY good discussion here... (note: Emphases mine...)

CDS Guidance to Commanding Officers : CANADIAN FORCES PHYSICAL FITNESS PROGRAM

2201.2 Key to attaining the high levels of physical fitness necessary for today’s deployed operations is a reaffirmation of a “culture of fitness” across our Canadian Forces. Although we currently benefit from outstanding fitness facilities, professional physical educators, health promotion staff, and well-researched programs, recent fitness and health practices of many of our units and members leaves much to be desired.

2201.4 Transforming the physical activity patterns of CF members and achieving the health benefits that are inherent in such changes will take some time. There are no short-term solutions that will produce a lasting impact. However, to produce the desired effect, the active engagement of all CF leaders must begin immediately. I expect my commanding officers to do what is required to enhance levels of fitness by contributing to fitness issue discussions and by actively supporting fitness policy decisions.

2202.2 Adding to that concern is the fact that the number of obese CF members increased between the 2000 and 2004 HLIS surveys. The 2004 version reported 22% of CF males and 13% of CF females who responded to the survey were obese. 81% of CF personnel reported their job requires little or no physical activity and so these people cannot depend on performing their regular duties to keep them fit. 2202.3 The 2000 HLIS also indicated that junior personnel in the CF lacked the motivation to maintain their fitness and senior personnel lacked the time. This is a dangerous combination because the very folks who are supposed to be leading the troops by example aren’t playing this important role because they see themselves as too busy. The 2004 HLIS showed that 75% of CF members recognize that starting to exercise or increasing the amount they exercise will improve their overall health. Therefore, individual motivation levels may be on the rise and we now have the organizational responsibility to convert that motivation into action. Those of us in senior leadership positions need to demonstrate an unshakable will to correct identified fitness shortcomings within our units.

2203.5 These fundamental concepts are supported by the following selection of fitness guidelines to establishing a culture of fitness:
a. It is imperative that the requirement for fitness training at least five times a week is respected and applied. As Commanding Officers you will be in a
position to facilitate this requirement for all your personnel.
b. Seek out every opportunity for CF members to include exercise in their work routines. The mantras of “fitness on your own time” or “we don’t have time for fitness” are to be eliminated. Given what we know of the power of daily fitness to increase morale, reduce stress, and improve work performance, it is incumbent upon us to be innovative in our approach when a formal fitness routine is impractical.
c. Seek out every opportunity to promote and reward healthy physical activities and fitness practices.
d. Commanding officers’ active involvement in fitness programs and their visible success on fitness evaluations is critical to convincing the CF member that physical fitness is a shared value in the organization.
e. A group fitness programs approach is preferred. Although the merits of individual programs are well known, where possible consider training as a group to derive the benefits of esprit de corps, control, and monitoring.
f. A group/unit fitness evaluations approach is required. Doing your evaluations as a group/unit has the potential to motivate higher levels of fitness achievement and reduce administration.
g. Don’t focus the entire fitness programs on making the fitness standard but rather emphasize the additional health benefits of living a positive lifestyle.
Simple adherence to a minimum physical fitness standard is only a building block in a systematic approach to effecting cultural change.
h. Seek variety and progression in fitness training programs employing cross training where possible.
i. Continuous education of staff, leadership and personnel on a healthy lifestyle and fitness practices as well as how to exercise safely is imperative. Consult
with local PSP fitness staff for assistance.
j. Do not turn a blind eye to obesity. Obesity is a valid indicator of current or developing health problems. We have solid evidence-based weight loss programs in the CF, the utilization of which will benefit both our operational
readiness and the health of the CF member.

OMG and there is SOOOO much more. I honestly have a hard time arguing with directives... especially ones that come from my CDS...
k. Partner with the available professional organizations and capitalize on their programs. The Canadian Forces Personnel Support Agency’s (CFPSA) Personnel Support Program (PSP) and the Directorate of Force Health Protection’s (DFHP) Strengthening the Forces program have specifically been put in to place to help service your fitness, health and wellness need

 

[cld617]

I would get looked at like I had horns if I tried to convince my CoC of the 5x a week program, and their exact response would be “fitness on your own time”. The only people in my CoC I see who actually do get the time to do this are mon-fri officers, who are generally healthier and more fitness oriented than the Sgt/WO's in the RCAF. The issue in my eyes is that PT is regarded as a privilege once all tasks have been completed, while the reality is that PT itself is very much one of these tasks that needs to fall into the schedule.

Suggestions from the senior NCO's and Officers on how to address this issue in my Sqn apart from printing out ten copies of the CDS's Guidance and plastering it throughout the unit?

 

[daftandbarmy]

Based on my experience, the Class B people I've seen (technically paid to do PT daily because they are allowed to turn up to work an hour later than normal people so they can do PT in their own time) are far less fit than the Class A troops we have.  Some are grossly obese, in fact, and would be kicked out of they were Class A troops.

Of course, our Class A troops must pass all the tests (Force and BFT) annually but are not paid to do PT to get ready for them. I haven't seen anyone fail yet, except for some retired Reg F folks who joined the reserves  ;D

Solution? Put everyone on Class A for 3 months until they get fit enough to pass the Force and BFT tests  ;D

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I would get looked at like I had horns if I tried to convince my CoC of the 5x a week program, and their exact response would be “fitness on your own time”.

Great.  Now you have the CDS direction that makes their opinion irrelevant.

The only people in my CoC I see who actually do get the time to do this are mon-fri officers, who are generally healthier and more fitness oriented than the Sgt/WO's in the RCAF my unit. The issue in my eyes is that PT is regarded as a privilege once all tasks have been completed, while the reality is that PT itself is very much one of these tasks that needs to fall into the schedule.

Not sure what RCAF unit you are in but I can assure you your experience is not the norm I've experienced in the RCAF before making the jump to the blue from the Cbt Arms world.

Suggestions from the senior NCO's and Officers on how to address this issue in my Sqn apart from printing out ten copies of the CDS's Guidance and plastering it throughout the unit?

Why exclude the opinions of Warrant Officers?  They have valid experience and points, just like Snr NCOs and Officers do.

Have you considered asking for 5 minutes of your immediate superiors time, and discussing the CDS Guidance to COs excerpt along with the relevant DAOD?  If you get the "pt on your own time"  you can point out that, unless they somehow outrank the CDS, the direction is pretty clear and it doesn't appear they have the authority to disregard orders.  Assuming your 'next up' is a Jnr or Snr NCO (Warrant Officers are not Snr NCOs BTW)...

From QR & O, Vol 1, Chap 5

5.01- GENERAL RESPONSIBILITIES OF NON-COMMISSIONED MEMBERS

A non-commissioned member shall:
a.become acquainted with, observe and enforce i.the National Defence Act,
ii.the Security of Information Act, (5 June 2008)
iii.QR&O, and
iv.all other regulations, rules, orders and instructions that pertain to the performance of the member's duties;

(See articles 1.22 – Accessibility of Regulations, Orders and Instructions and 4.26 – Publicity of Regulations, Orders, Instructions, Correspondence and Publications.)
b.afford to all persons employed in the public service such assistance in the performance of their duties as is practical;
c.promote the welfare, efficiency and good discipline of all who are subordinate to the member;
d.ensure the proper care and maintenance and prevent the waste of all public and non-public property within the member's control; and
e.report to the proper authority any infringement of the pertinent statutes, regulations, rules, orders and instructions governing the conduct of any person subject to the Code of Service Discipline.

Depending how important the issue is to you, you could staff a memo to the unit CO with the proper references asking for the directed PT times IAW the CDS Guidance and the DAOD.

If that gets denied, you could submit a grievance.  Again, depends on what level you want to go. 

 

[MJP]

ff topic:

Why exclude the opinions of Warrant Officers?  They have valid experience and points, just like Snr NCOs and Officers do.

I know it is your cross to bear in life cause you keep talking about it but in common vernacular most people in the CAF mean all ranks above Sgt when they say SNCO.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

It's not 'off topic', its PD.  If "most" people mean it, then "most" people are wrong. 

Fact.  WOs are not NCOs.  Therefore they cannot be Senior NCOs.  Unless, of course, you are willing to argue that the QR & Os are incorrect.

"non-commissioned officer" (sous-officier)means a member holding the rank of sergeant or corporal;

I guess NCOs can start referring to Capt's as subordinate officers then, as long as "most" of us do it, then it's cool.  8)