Pay Increase

[1R22eR]

i have receive the new payrool for the augmentation, and its 6,5% now and 2,4% for the april 1st 2005

 

[childs56]

so after April 1st 05 will be get a 8.9% increase on top of the pay or do we receive a 6.5% back pay and Just a 2.4% from april with the 6.5 just being a one time payment. Just wondering

 

[404SqnAVSTeach]

Technically... it is not 6.5%... it is a compounded 2.25 and 4.25.  if you look at the pay scale http://hr.dwan.dnd.ca/DGCB/DPPD//pay/engraph/home_e.asp?sidesection=3&sidecat=28 If you take you pay (Apr03) and multiply by 6.5 your number should be lower than the one on the pay scale.  And the 2.4 is also compounded.  So the total is a bit more that 9%.

 

[043]

Man you guys like to analize the crap out of everything on here. Bottom line, are we getting 8.9% more than what we got last month??? YES!!!

 

[PPCLI Guy]

Man you guys like to analize the crap out of everything on here. Bottom line, are we getting 8.9% more than what we got last month??? YES!!!

Amen.

And I would add - are we getting 12.9B more over the next 5 years?  YES!

 

[Sundborg]

Thanks guys.  IMHO

 

[Missile Man]

You choose to make this your first contribution to the board?   Pity, as it really doesn't show much thought.   Shall I define "flamebait" now, too?

Speaking of not showing much thought - your response, my dear.  The intent was to generate discussion on this topic, not to generate civil unrest.  I want to actually hear your opinion on this uneven increase, not hear how "salty" you guys are and how "new" I am to this forum.  Hit me with your intellectual best regarding this pay announcement, if you please!

 

[Missile Man]

boo-hoo- SWC

A Navy League Cadet knows what a SWC is?  Impressive.  Now, what does it stand for?

 

[S McKee]

Speaking of not showing much thought - your response, my dear.   The intent was to generate discussion on this topic, not to generate civil unrest.   I want to actually hear your opinion on this uneven increase, not hear how "salty" you guys are and how "new" I am to this forum.   Hit me with your intellectual best regarding this pay announcement, if you please!

You want the great unwashed masses response to the pay raise difference between officers and NCOs ummmm lets see something intellectual well, ooooh you like the big words, ok  how about  " Nah Nah Nana Nah"...how's that?

 

[Fraser.g]

You want the great unwashed masses response to the pay raise difference between officers and NCOs ummmm lets see something intellectual well, ooooh you like the big words, ok   how about   " Nah Nah Nana Nah"...how's that?

LOLOL

 

[Missile Man]

You want the great unwashed masses response to the pay raise difference between officers and NCOs ummmm lets see something intellectual well, ooooh you like the big words, ok   how about   " Nah Nah Nana Nah"...how's that?

I take it from your "witty retort" that you can't actually back up the uneven pay raise?  I thank you for your constructive, thoughtful analysis on this subject.  Looks like this issue is closed. "Na na nah"?  I'll have to get my infant son to translate that one for me.  I shudder to think how active this post would be if the numbers were reversed..good Lord, we would never hear the end of it!

 

[S McKee]

Why do you want people on this forum to back up the pay raise, you make it sound like the lower deckers actually orchestrated this diabolical plot so the snotters would get less..give it a rest man. You want justification go after the Treasury Board. Remember a Capt or Lt(N) in your case gets far more pay incentives than a peon LS. And you don't need your infant son to translate I can...it means I'm getting more than you.

 

[Navalsnpr]

Although for the most part pay raises have been similar across the board, there have been times where there is a large difference between the Officers and NCM's. After the pay freeze in the 90's, the Officers did receive a much larger percentage than the NCM's, if memory serves me correctly, I think it was around 10-12 % more than the NCM's received.

The fact of the matter is that the Treasury Board decided what we were going to get based on the contracts that were signed over the past 6-12 months.

Lets keep the sticks on the ice....

 

[Missile Man]

Although for the most part pay raises have been similar across the board, there have been times where there is a large difference between the Officers and NCM's. After the pay freeze in the 90's, the Officers did receive a much larger percentage than the NCM's, if memory serves me correctly, I think it was around 10-12 % more than the NCM's received.

The fact of the matter is that the Treasury Board decided what we were going to get based on the contracts that were signed over the past 6-12 months.

Lets keep the sticks on the ice....

Thank God, some thoughtful discussion on this topic, kudos to the Navy.  Sniper, you are exactly right, we are at the receiving end of Treasury Board decisions, and ultimately what happens in the private sector.  I do indeed remember that massive pay increase after the freeze, it was around 97-98?  Hopefully now that we are more closely aligned with the private sector we will not endure another freeze like that one.

 

[George Wallace]

Another part of the problem is Treasury Boards attempts to pigeon hole Military Trades into levels of Civil Service Jobs, and descriptions of managerial and executive positions.

Gw

 

[NiTz]

Hi!
I'm not a member of the CF yet but I can tell you that the pay is very good even for a starting Pte. I work as a mechanic in a Honda dealer, and we are the most paid mechanics over all the industry. Now, if you consider that the maximum i'll be making in 3 years getting fully qualified is around 47900$ and that i'll actually keep this pay UNTIL I get out of the job at 65 yrs old... and this with little augmentation every 4 years due to inflation. Plus, I have to pay for dental insurance wich is 30$ a week, stupid union dues of 31.25$ a week, and all the other crap you get for free in the CF (except for the stupid union, of course). Now, if I would work ALL year long, i'd be making around 32000$ but wait... there's no job all year long in garages, and I get like 3 months of E-I a year because there's no job for me during the winter. So this year, I made 24000$ and it's been 4 years since i'm in, and more frustrating, I still wait for my E-I checks every 2 weeks, hoping my boss will call me anytime. Pretty boring and desperating.

According to the fact that a basic corporal makes around 49000$ a year and that you become a corporal automatically after 4 years, that sounds very good. Sure you guys have a much harder job than I do (for now), but you also get a very good pay for that all.

And more, you actually CAN get promoted and you can get on courses at any times! Listen, it makes 4 years I work in the same garage, and I NEVER went to any course of any type, because, as my dumb-ass boss says, "courses are very expensive". Now how would I progress in my career without going on any course? That's why I applied in the military, I wanna learn! I wanna progress and that's kind of an impossible thing on the civvy. I want to identify myself to my work environment, wich I don't do now because my work environment is composed of slackers and "we don't work too fast, or the boss is always gonna ask us for more" types. Actually, if I ever try to progress, I get slowed down by all the others because "hey, don't give too much to him (the boss)". This is, again, a result of this stupid union. ..

Again, this is my opinion and i'm not in the military yet, so feel free to correct me if my interpretation of the military is bad. Anyways, I hope to join the team ASAP (waiting for my med file to come back)

Have a good day!


Nitz

 

[jc5778]

good luck and I hope to god you are picking a trade when u get in (hint hint)  The pay and benefits are obviously good. 

 

[NiTz]

Thank you very much.. and yes I applied FCS tech   I hope everything will go fine as I've read all over the forum that the recruiting process is such a pain in the ***. Yes, the benefits are very good, and the job is VERY interesting and challenging!


Have a good one! 

 

[PPCLI Guy]

Here is a backgrounder on pay:

Backgrounder
Canadian Forces Pay
BG-05.004 - February 25, 2005

The Government is committed to ensuring that members of the Canadian Forces receive pay and benefits comparable to members of the Public Service and reflective of the uniqueness of military service.

COMPARABILITY
Following unification of the Canadian Forces (CF) in the mid-60s, the Department of National Defence and the Treasury Board Secretariat adopted the principle of comparability between the CF and the Public Service (PS). The two major reasons for instituting comparability are to ensure that CF members would benefit from the results of collective bargaining and recognition that the federal government acts as the â Å“employerâ ? for both groups.

TEAM CONCEPT
As is the case in most militaries, the CF uses a rank-based â Å“team conceptâ ? or institutional approach to determine pay. In this methodology, the average value of the work performed by all members of a specific rank level is considered in developing pay scales. This methodology is quite different from the more common PS method in which an individual is paid the evaluated worth for the specific position they are filling. In exceptional cases, market factors drive the CF to consider certain military occupations, such as doctors, dentists, lawyers and some high-tech trades, separate from the majority of CF members. However, even within these special occupations, the â Å“team conceptâ ? (pay by rank not position) is applied.

Given the nature of the military's work, the â Å“team conceptâ ? makes a lot of sense, and it is used to the maximum extent possible. However, the use of the â Å“team conceptâ ? presents some challenges when comparing the CF to non-military organizations that use an occupational or job-specific approach because direct military - civilian trade comparisons are not possible.

TOTAL COMPENSATION METHODOLOGY
In the late 70s, Treasury Board directed that the Department adopt the Total Compensation (TC) analysis, which was being developed at the time for use in collective bargaining with the PS unions. Treasury Board wanted to ensure that the full value of the compensation and benefits made available to federal public servants was considered in negotiations. The methodology includes salary and evaluates benefits such as pensions, severance pay, acting pay, overtime and medical and dental services, as well as â Å“time not workedâ ?, including annual leave, sick leave and a number of other types of â Å“time offâ ?.

The objective of this form of analysis is to compare the compensation and benefits available to one group of employees to the compensation and benefits of another group. The end result provides a net value, expressed in terms of the dollars paid per hour actually worked, for the first group of employees, as compared to the net value of the dollars paid per hour actually worked for the second group. The warranted pay increase or decrease in a given year is the percentage difference between these two values. For the military, two TC analyses are conducted: one for general service officers and one for non-commissioned members. â Å“Comparabilityâ ? is considered to be achieved if the CF dollar per hour worked is equal to the PS dollar per hour worked.

The Military Factor

It is important to note that the TC analyses, as applied to the CF, also provides latitude to determine the dollar value of the unique aspects of CF service. The most obvious example is the Military Factor, which values the major characteristics unique to military service. Although the unique aspects of military service such as Code of Service Discipline, separation from family and posting turbulence are not easily quantified, the Military Factor allows 7.5% for non-commissioned members and 6.5% for general service officers, in recognition of these â Å“disutilitiesâ ?.

ENVIRONMENTAL ALLOWANCES
Environmental allowances provide financial recognition for CF members whose military duties involve sporadic or continuous exposure to adverse environmental conditions, including hazards which other members do not usually experience, such as sea duty, and field and aircrew operations.

The most recent pay and allowance increases can be viewed on DND/CF's internet website at http://www.dnd.ca/hr/dppd/engraph/home_e.asp

PAY GROUPS
Non-Commissioned Members

Non-commissioned members are paid rates of pay determined through TC analysis. Within each rank there are a number of Incentive Pay Categories (IPC), which represent automatic annual increases given in recognition of advancements in experience, skill and knowledge. As well, there are three sub-groups of pay into which non-commissioned member trade groups are slotted. These sub-groups are Standard, Specialist 1 and Specialist 2 and pay rates vary in each sub-group . The Specialist 1 and Specialist 2 sub-groups, which include military occupations such as Military Police, Fire Control Systems Technicians, Flight Engineers, Biomedical Electronics Technicians, and Marine Engineering Artificers, comprise jobs which are highly complex in nature and whose skills generally are in high demand in the private sector.

General Service Officers

General service officers include all officers below the rank of colonel in all occupation groups except for pilots and specialist officers (legal, medical and dental officers). General service officers pay rates are determined through TC analysis, and they receive incentive level increases similar to those of non-commissioned members. One significant difference is that there are often more incentive levels for officer ranks than there are for non-commissioned member ranks to recognize that it takes longer for officers to gather all the experience, skill and knowledge to reach the job rate (maximum) for their rank.

Pilots

Pilots are paid general service officer rates of pay plus a pilot differential to recognize private sector market factors.

Senior Officers (Colonels and above)

Colonels and general officers, other than legal, medical and dental officers, are paid based upon direct benchmark comparisons to the Public Service's Executive Group. Job analysis is used to establish the benchmarks.

Legal Officers

All CF legal officers (except military judges) are paid based on direct benchmarks to the Public Service's excluded Law Group. In addition, legal officers below the rank of colonel receive the same military factor as general service officers, as analysis has shown that they are subjected to similar military conditions as the general service officers. Legal officers receive performance pay.

Military Judges

Military judges are paid based upon the recommendations of the Military Judges' Compensation Committee and the subsequent approval of both the Minister of National Defence and the Treasury Board. To ensure the independence of the military judges, their performance is not assessed and, hence, they do not receive performance pay.

Medical And Dental Officers

As of April 1, 1999, medical and dental officers' total compensation is determined in relation to private practice practitioners. Medical and dental officers in the ranks of lieutenant-colonel and above also receive performance pay.

 

[Wizard of OZ]

MM  I am curious are you asking me to justify the NCM pay raise or are you complaing that it is larger then yours?  (not being sarcastic an actual question)

I think the largest part of the pay raise comes as a adjustment to what the private sector makes and other then that we are on the same level, other then the 4.25 compared to your 1.03 public adjustment, we are receiving the same increase correct.
So all that tells me is that the Treasury board see that you were making closer to what your job would be equal to in the civi world as a supervisor as opposed to Joe NCM who is making close to 5 % less his buddy who works in civi land.

Are you complaing and think that you are not being payed enough or that you think we are being payed to much?

I agree this post would be way more active if it was the other way around but i think right fully so.  A Cpl has only 4 levels before they top out and MCpl has another 4 while a Captain and Major have what 8 levels.  So you can continue to increase your pay without a promotion for almost a decade while a NCM has to get promoted every 5 yrs to try and keep ahead of inflation (without pay adjustments).  Tell me how that is fair? 

I don't know if you were just trying to get the old grey matter a spinning or if was an actual bitter post.  Either way you got it MOO.