Pay Increments for academic qualifications etc

[ballz]

After completing roughly two (out of four) years of Electrical Engineering at McGill University, I can tell you that you are either completely mistaken or are generalizing way too much. To put this into perspective, just last term we had to build a fully functional autonomous robot from scratch capable of performing fairly complex specific tasks, in 6 weeks time. When I explained the project to my folks (who graduated from high school about 30 years ago) they could not comprehend on how someone even goes about starting something like that.

I'll suggest your perspective is a bit skewed from reality because you are doing one of the few legit programs available, at a prestigious university.

For 95% of people wielding Bachelor's degrees, this is simply not the case. Most of them are in programs that have absolutely no marketibility, and attending schools where the standard is, in fact, the same as high school. For most programs at most universities, for 4 years you show up, regurgitate what the prof puts up on the whiteboard,  pay your money, and you get a Bachelor's degree.

It is my belief that this is why the CF demands that all officers posses a Bachelors degree. For one, their "best and brightest" must be able to hold themselves to at least the same standards as their civilian world counterparts in all aspects; including level of education. Secondly, and as hard as it is for a lot of folks to accept, having a degree does actually make an individual better qualified in terms of skill, ability, and knowledge (where these three traits are assumed to be umbrella like terms with respect to academia).

Here it comes... :trainwreck:

For one thing, I wouldn't refer to the CF's officers as "their best and brightest." Almost all of my courses have been run primarily by NCMs, and quite frankly, they are some of the sharpest people I have come across in my life, including the one that only had his grade 10. I think, if you read more threads about this, you will find that those with experience (aka not me) will echo the same thing, that officers are no more "brighter" than NCMs, they are all people, and there are about the same number of less-than-stellar individuals in both groups, they simply occupy different roles.

As for the part in yellow, like I said, you're living in a bit of a bubble doing engineering at McGill. I have come across two fourth-year business students in my program that still don't know the difference between profit and revenue... and they'll be graduating in ~20 days.

 

[aesop081]

I wish i still had the demotivational poster that had a KC-135 in peices all over tha hangar floor and said :

"Aircraft Maintenance : Takes a highschool diploma to fix what a university degree just f***ed up"

 

[matthew1786]

For one thing, I wouldn't refer to the CF's officers as "their best and brightest." Almost all of my courses have been run primarily by NCMs, and quite frankly, they are some of the sharpest people I have come across in my life, including the one that only had his grade 10. I think, if you read more threads about this, you will find that those with experience (aka not me) will echo the same thing, that officers are no more "brighter" than NCMs, they are all people, and there are about the same number of less-than-stellar individuals in both groups, they simply occupy different roles.

As for the part in yellow, like I said, you're living in a bit of a bubble doing engineering at McGill. I have come across two fourth-year business students in my program that still don't know the difference between profit and revenue... and they'll be graduating in ~20 days.

Thank you for enlightening the perspective.

If a degree has lost any of its merit, it is most likely due to the pressures of society placed on the individual to meet this elevated standard. If this is the case, the natural tendency will be to reduce the level of difficulty to achieve a degree as jobs will always need to be filled regardless. If this is what is happening across the majority of universities in Canada, then I can not argue my point any further as I always keep an open mind.

You are correct in that I should not have assumed that officers are the "best and brightest" and apologize for that. I did however place the term in quotation marks because I am really not sure whether if that is the image officers should posses, or not.

Cheers!

 

[Strike]

Been sitting her watching this thread for a bit and I don't think anyone ever properly answered the OP's questions which, if I recal correctly, was if there is a pay incentive for those who have a higher education.

Not sure I have the answer, but I'll take a stab at it.

Aside from the different entry plans, like ROTP, DEO, etc, there is no extra incentive for schooling once you reach a certain point in your career/rank.  For shits and giggles I'm just going to say when you are fully trained.  When I went through the system and finished my training as a pilot, there was no difference in pay between ROTP, DEO, CEOTP or whatever. Now, the pilot pay system is higher than that of a GSO, but so is a doctor, lawyer and maybe a couple of others (dentist?).  Buddy of mine who is a fully qualified test pilot with a PhD is on the same pay scale as other pilots.  My PAO counterparts with Masters in Journalism don't get paid any more than I do.

Now, there may be benefits in promotion or posting opportunities if you have a higher education, but there is no monetary benefit AFAIK.

 

[ballz]

If a degree has lost any of its merit, it is most likely due to the pressures of society placed on the individual to meet this elevated standard. If this is the case, the natural tendency will be to reduce the level of difficulty to achieve a degree as jobs will always need to be filled regardless. If this is what is happening across the majority of universities in Canada, then I can not argue my point any further as I always keep an open mind.

That is somewhat what I think is happening. There is much more pressure to complete high school these days because you are almost absolutely f**ked without it now, so there is much more pressure on administrators to ensure people get their HS diploma. Unfortunately, they can't force people to study, they can't make them disciplined, and they really can't motivate them (this, of course, is all on the parents... and they are making it worse because they undermine educators these days)... so they really end up lowering the standard.

Same basic thing is happening at universities, I think, since there is more pressure these days to get an undergraduate (because, as was alluded to earlier, it's becoming the new "high school diploma," you need it just as a tick in the box) and because it's much more affordable these days. So, not only is the standard lowering, but now you are starting to see people go straight to a master's program / professional program after their undergraduate, because "everyone's got a Bachelor's" and therefore it's value is being watered down.

There is also, I think, a larger sense of entitlement these days that is compounding all this... :-\

 

[dapaterson]

Been sitting her watching this thread for a bit and I don't think anyone ever properly answered the OP's questions which, if I recal correctly, was if there is a pay incentive for those who have a higher education.

Not sure I have the answer, but I'll take a stab at it.

Aside from the different entry plans, like ROTP, DEO, etc, there is no extra incentive for schooling once you reach a certain point in your career/rank.  For shits and giggles I'm just going to say when you are fully trained.  When I went through the system and finished my training as a pilot, there was no difference in pay between ROTP, DEO, CEOTP or whatever. Now, the pilot pay system is higher than that of a GSO, but so is a doctor, lawyer and maybe a couple of others (dentist?).  Buddy of mine who is a fully qualified test pilot with a PhD is on the same pay scale as other pilots.  My PAO counterparts with Masters in Journalism don't get paid any more than I do.

Now, there may be benefits in promotion or posting opportunities if you have a higher education, but there is no monetary benefit AFAIK.

There are very limited circumstances when prior education and experience may (and I stress the word may) grant you additional PIs on enrolment.

For example: professionals enrolled into their field where their experience is deemed to be of benefit may receive PIs.  So, for example, a doctor or lawyer with years of experience may be granted additional PIs on enrolment - so instead of starting out as a Capt(Basic) they may be paid as a Capt (2) or Capt(3) or Capt(whatever).  I believe the same is true of padres.

Similarly, an id=ndividual joining the CF with prior military experience from another country may be granted additional PIs.

Key word throughout is "may".  Each case is different.  Your mileage may vary.

 

[CountDC]

and May is correct.  Recruited a Doctor in the 90's that had years of experience, his own clinic and he was given Capt max IPC along with some other nices.  A few years ago I worked with a guy from Africa that used to be a Maj in his homeland but here he was a Pte when I first met him. No - don't know which country he was from.

Never know for sure how those things are going to work out until the deal is done.

 

[agc]

I'm looking for "orders or instructions issued by the Chief of the Defence Staff, for academic or other special qualifications considered by the Chief of the Defence Staff to be of military value." as referenced in CBI 204.511(2).c. (below).  It has been mentioned on this board that (for example) a masters degree should bump you up by one pay increment level but that hasn't happened for me, and I would like some written confirmation that it should have been. 

I thought the PLAR database might contain that kind of thing, but it seems to be focussed on exemptions for specific military training.


Ref. 204.511(2) (Qualifying service) Subject to conditions prescribed in orders or instructions issued by the Chief of Defence Staff, qualifying service for pay increments includes

a.subject to paragraph (3), all previous service for an officer or non-commissioned member at the member’s present rank, equivalent rank or any higher rank, including paid acting rank in
a.the Regular Force and all other permanent armed forces of Her Majesty,
b.any component of the Canadian Forces and of all other armed forces of Her Majesty, when on active service, or
c.the Primary Reserve, Cadet Instructors Cadre and the Canadian Rangers of the Reserve Force; and
b.for an officer or non-commissioned member on enrolment in the Canadian Forces, a period as established in orders or instructions issued by the Chief of the Defence Staff, for academic or other special qualifications considered by the Chief of the Defence Staff to be of military value.

Although it`s allowable under the CBI, it`s not currently being practiced, at least not on a wide scale.  I wish I had some kind of reference to give you, but all I can tell you is that a few years ago (08 or 09), we were told through our chain of command to stop granting it as the authority had been rescinded. 

 

[CountDC]

Came across this while looking at pay info:

cmp-cpm.forces.mil.ca/dgcb/dppd/pdf/piir-daes_e.pdf

CDS Order requests to grant additional Pay Increments
Refs: A. CBI 204.015
B. CBI 204.511
C. DAOD 5031-1

In order for the DPPD to prepare a case for CDS approval, the following requirements must be met.

Recommendations to grant additional Pay Increment (PI) must be supported by rationale that clearly demonstrates the relationship between the recommended PI and the incumbent’s qualifying service, academic or other special qualifications.

Simply stated, it must be obvious to DPPD that the incumbent’s level of experience, academic or other special qualifications have been assessed against and match those of a CF member in the occupation, at the rank and PI level recommended. Supporting rationale must be presented in the form of a memorandum summarizing the request and signed by the Managing Authority.

Supporting documentation must include:

a. a Prior Learning Assessment and Recognition (PLAR) signed by the Occupational Manager, and where applicable, a completed evaluation matrix (Ref C) demonstrating any equivalencies that the incumbent may have against occupational requirements and resultant training efficiencies;

b. a CV or résumé outlining relevant experience and qualifications with applicable dates;

c. copies of relevant certificates or diplomas; and where applicable,

d. letters of employment reference; and

e. proof of prior CF service (i.e. MPRR).

In the case of a member who experiences training delays, PI increase requests must be staffed to DPPD through the appropriate Training Authority. Facts must be presented in the form of a memorandum summarizing the request and signed by the Training Authority. Any additional supporting documentation (i.e. MPRR and pay history) related to the facts presented must be attached to the signed memorandum.

All documentation may be mailed to DPPD 2-3-2, or sent by email at [email protected]