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Peace, Propaganda & The Promised Land

CanadaPhil

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I wanted to pass along a link to a site I have come across while looking into debate on Middle Eastern television.

It is NOT ALL ONE SIDED as many of you (including myself) may think. I have found this site to be incredibly enlightening.

The main page of the MEMRI TV Project can be found here:

http://memritv.org/aboutus.asp


*** HERE ARE LINKS TO 2 CLIPS THAT JUST BLEW ME AWAY. I was awestruck by the utter conviction and bravery of this woman being interviewed by Al Jazeera.

http://www.memritv.org/view.asp?P1=1050

http://www.memritv.org/view.asp?P1=783


 
Here is a New York Times article (2006-03-11) (reproduced here under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act) about Dr. Wafa Sultan.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/11/international/middleeast/11sultan.html?ex=1299733200&en=d13886daba5e586f&ei=5090&partner=rssus
For Muslim Who Says Violence Destroys Islam, Violent Threats

By JOHN M. BRODER
Published: March 11, 2006

LOS ANGELES, March 10 — Three weeks ago, Dr. Wafa Sultan was a largely unknown Syrian-American psychiatrist living outside Los Angeles, nursing a deep anger and despair about her fellow Muslims.

“I have no choice. I am questioning every single teaching of our holy book.”

- DR. WAFA SULTAN
Video: Dr. Wafa Sultan on Al Jazeera (memritv.org)

Today, thanks to an unusually blunt and provocative interview on Al Jazeera television on Feb. 21, she is an international sensation, hailed as a fresh voice of reason by some, and by others as a heretic and infidel who deserves to die.

In the interview, which has been viewed on the Internet more than a million times and has reached the e-mail of hundreds of thousands around the world, Dr. Sultan bitterly criticized the Muslim clerics, holy warriors and political leaders who she believes have distorted the teachings of Muhammad and the Koran for 14 centuries.

She said the world's Muslims, whom she compares unfavorably with the Jews, have descended into a vortex of self-pity and violence.

Dr. Sultan said the world was not witnessing a clash of religions or cultures, but a battle between modernity and barbarism, a battle that the forces of violent, reactionary Islam are destined to lose.

In response, clerics throughout the Muslim world have condemned her, and her telephone answering machine has filled with dark threats. But Islamic reformers have praised her for saying out loud, in Arabic and on the most widely seen television network in the Arab world, what few Muslims dare to say even in private.

"I believe our people are hostages to our own beliefs and teachings," she said in an interview this week in her home in a Los Angeles suburb.

Dr. Sultan, who is 47, wears a prim sweater and skirt, with fleece-lined slippers and heavy stockings. Her eyes and hair are jet black and her modest manner belies her intense words: "Knowledge has released me from this backward thinking. Somebody has to help free the Muslim people from these wrong beliefs."

Perhaps her most provocative words on Al Jazeera were those comparing how the Jews and Muslims have reacted to adversity. Speaking of the Holocaust, she said, "The Jews have come from the tragedy and forced the world to respect them, with their knowledge, not with their terror; with their work, not with their crying and yelling."

She went on, "We have not seen a single Jew blow himself up in a German restaurant. We have not seen a single Jew destroy a church. We have not seen a single Jew protest by killing people."

She concluded, "Only the Muslims defend their beliefs by burning down churches, killing people and destroying embassies. This path will not yield any results. The Muslims must ask themselves what they can do for humankind, before they demand that humankind respect them."

Her views caught the ear of the American Jewish Congress, which has invited her to speak in May at a conference in Israel. "We have been discussing with her the importance of her message and trying to devise the right venue for her to address Jewish leaders," said Neil B. Goldstein, executive director of the organization.

She is probably more welcome in Tel Aviv than she would be in Damascus. Shortly after the broadcast, clerics in Syria denounced her as an infidel. One said she had done Islam more damage than the Danish cartoons mocking the Prophet Muhammad, a wire service reported.

DR. SULTAN is "working on a book that — if it is published — it's going to turn the Islamic world upside down."

"I have reached the point that doesn't allow any U-turn. I have no choice. I am questioning every single teaching of our holy book."

The working title is, "The Escaped Prisoner: When God Is a Monster."

Dr. Sultan grew up in a large traditional Muslim family in Banias, Syria, a small city on the Mediterranean about a two-hour drive north of Beirut. Her father was a grain trader and a devout Muslim, and she followed the faith's strictures into adulthood.

But, she said, her life changed in 1979 when she was a medical student at the University of Aleppo, in northern Syria. At that time, the radical Muslim Brotherhood was using terrorism to try to undermine the government of President Hafez al-Assad. Gunmen of the Muslim Brotherhood burst into a classroom at the university and killed her professor as she watched, she said.

"They shot hundreds of bullets into him, shouting, 'God is great!' " she said. "At that point, I lost my trust in their god and began to question all our teachings. It was the turning point of my life, and it has led me to this present point. I had to leave. I had to look for another god."

She and her husband, who now goes by the Americanized name of David, laid plans to leave for the United States. Their visas finally came in 1989, and the Sultans and their two children (they have since had a third) settled in with friends in Cerritos, Calif., a prosperous bedroom community on the edge of Los Angeles County. 

After a succession of jobs and struggles with language, Dr. Sultan has completed her American medical licensing, with the exception of a hospital residency program, which she hopes to do within a year. David operates an automotive-smog-check station. They bought a home in the Los Angeles area and put their children through local public schools. All are now American citizens.

BUT even as she settled into a comfortable middle-class American life, Dr. Sultan's anger burned within. She took to writing, first for herself, then for an Islamic reform Web site called Annaqed (The Critic), run by a Syrian expatriate in Phoenix.

An angry essay on that site by Dr. Sultan about the Muslim Brotherhood caught the attention of Al Jazeera, which invited her to debate an Algerian cleric on the air last July.

In the debate, she questioned the religious teachings that prompt young people to commit suicide in the name of God. "Why does a young Muslim man, in the prime of life, with a full life ahead, go and blow himself up?" she asked. "In our countries, religion is the sole source of education and is the only spring from which that terrorist drank until his thirst was quenched."

Her remarks set off debates around the globe and her name began appearing in Arabic newspapers and Web sites. But her fame grew exponentially when she appeared on Al Jazeera again on Feb. 21, an appearance that was translated and widely distributed by the Middle East Media Research Institute, known as Memri.

Memri said the clip of her February appearance had been viewed more than a million times.

"The clash we are witnessing around the world is not a clash of religions or a clash of civilizations," Dr. Sultan said. "It is a clash between two opposites, between two eras. It is a clash between a mentality that belongs to the Middle Ages and another mentality that belongs to the 21st century. It is a clash between civilization and backwardness, between the civilized and the primitive, between barbarity and rationality."

She said she no longer practiced Islam. "I am a secular human being," she said.

The other guest on the program, identified as an Egyptian professor of religious studies, Dr. Ibrahim al-Khouli, asked, "Are you a heretic?" He then said there was no point in rebuking or debating her, because she had blasphemed against Islam, the Prophet Muhammad and the Koran.

Dr. Sultan said she took those words as a formal fatwa, a religious condemnation. Since then, she said, she has received numerous death threats on her answering machine and by e-mail.

One message said: "Oh, you are still alive? Wait and see." She received an e-mail message the other day, in Arabic, that said, "If someone were to kill you, it would be me."

Dr. Sultan said her mother, who still lives in Syria, is afraid to contact her directly, speaking only through a sister who lives in Qatar. She said she worried more about the safety of family members here and in Syria than she did for her own.

"I have no fear," she said. "I believe in my message. It is like a million-mile journey, and I believe I have walked the first and hardest 10 miles."

She is not alone but she is part of a tiny, enlightened minority within Islam which, correctly I think, see Huntington’s Clash of Civilizations (in so far as it refers to the West and the Arab/Persian-Islamic ‘world’) as being a Clash of Eras: Medieval vs Modern or, in her words: a clash between civilization and barbarism.

She is a forceful and effective advocate for civilization but I fear for her life.
 
Thanks for posting that, i found it really interesting. She does have very good points and a really well thought out argument. The other chap in the last one seemed pretty keen to discuss Indians as though the Americans are still killing them. Its strange to hear them refer to the Crusades too. Bizarre to think that something that happened hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years ago is still relevent to Muslims.

That was really good. Thanks and i think Edward Campbell has a point. She must be a target for someone.
 
But the seed has been sown...now to see if it grows..
 
** UPDATE **

Here is a link to what Nazrallah, Hezbollah's leader said on Al Jazeera on July 21st. Its a little long but you can hear the other point of view directly from his mouth.

http://www.memritv.org/view.asp?P1=1200

** UPDATE ** (Again!)

There was also a Nazrallah interview just from yesterday I almost missed.

http://www.memritv.org/view.asp?P1=1203


=======================================================================


This one goes to a page showing multiple TV clips with debate on the Lebanon conflict:

http://memritv.org/Search.asp?ACT=S5&P1=166#


The first one on the list (just over 1 minute) is rather comical.
 
Of course MEMRI is merely the mouthpiece of the Zionist entity misrepresenting the peace loving Muslims.  ::)

At first they were criticized for their selection of pieces that were being translated, the critics claiming they were showing only one view, I noticed that they balanced them out a bit to show that there are in fact Muslims who will speak publicly about peace with the west and Israel, but they are few and far between sadly.

I read one piece on “Arab News” lambasting their translations, I sent the author an e-mail asking for examples to prove his point, never heard from him. That has been the only complaint I have seen about the quality of their translations.
 
Hale said:
Its strange to hear them refer to the Crusades too. Bizarre to think that something that happened hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years ago is still relevent to Muslims.

Hmmm, Jesus,....born over 2000 years ago...somewhat relevant to Christians one might think.

..and if you need Christians caring about battles from "hundreds and hundreds of years ago", check out Ireland and the UK during marching season.  Seems like a double standard argument to me.
 
Marching down a road to celebrate old battles is a bit different to setting 200kg of explosive under a block of flats and claiming it was because of the Crusades of 1065. That seems disproportionate to me.
Thats what i meant in the post. Also, because I'm sure your thinking this. I'm yet to hear any Irish Republican or Ulster loyalist claim that they did a car bomb to get back at the other for the English invasion in 1170. They'll claim a reason or incident a tad more up to date.
 
Hale said:
Marching down a road to celebrate old battles is a bit different to setting 200kg of explosive under a block of flats and claiming it was because of the Crusades of 1065. That seems disproportionate to me.
Thats what i meant in the post. Also, because I'm sure your thinking this. I'm yet to hear any Irish Republican or Ulster loyalist claim that they did a car bomb to get back at the other for the English invasion in 1170. They'll claim a reason or incident a tad more up to date.

No bombs have ever gone off in Ireland I guess. No religious fighting that has gone on for centuries? Sure they'll use a 'more recent' incident. But they'll also go back centuries for cannon fodder if you want them to.

As will there be current incidents used relating to goings on in the mid-eastern regions. Like fresh water, right of Palestinians to return to occupied territories, settlements, and reasons like grouping the few intollerants together with the masses of those Muslims who disagree with their extremist views. Happens all the time.

Just as the Bosnians and the Serbs could refer back to battles of centuries gone by, so can, and do, every other religious entity in the world.

Why is whats good for the goose not good for the gander here?
 
All i said was for me personally i find it in concievable that some can claim ancient history as a reason for killing others. In the second paragraph of my post i mentioned bombs going off in Northern Ireland. My family are from Ireland, my mum grew up there, when my grandfather was my age he was in the IRA. I was responding to Bruce mentioning "Marching season".
But what i'm saying is that i find it inconcievable to use ancient history to kill people. I dont care if its the Proddies or the Provos, Al-Quada or Hezbollah. It just doesnt seem like a reason to me in the same way it does for them. Thats what all i mean in the first post! Ireland wasnt involved in this topic so i didnt mention it.
 
This particular clip is quite surprising:

http://memritv.org/Search.asp?ACT=S5&P1=166#

Strange that the president of Venezuela would have such a bone on against Israel.  Did it not occur to him that the guy sitting beside him thinks he is a degenerate infidel, and would like nothing better than to see him dead, and his country converted to the radical shia vision?  :clown:

***note*** That shortcut leads to the list of vids, not the specific one.  It is listed first, and has the two presidents dancing to Up Where We Belong   in the thumbnail (I think  ;D). 
 
** UPDATE **

Here is what the President of Yemen said on August 1 regarding the situation in Lebanon.

I cannot believe this lunatic is the PRESIDENT of a nation. Mind boggling. ::)


http://www.memritv.org/view.asp?P1=1217
 
He has the same crazy eyes that some of the people I drag into the psych ward have. 
Time to renew your script, Mr. Saleh. 
 
Interesting. Always very informative and important to get a look over the fence.

I found the secular Arab woman on MEMRI (the one debating the cleric...) to be generally quite good, but rather forgetful where the Israelis and terrorism are concerned. As we have discussed elsewhere, Jewish groups such as Irgun, Palmach, the Stern Gang, etc most defintely did use very vicious terrorist techniques in the late 1940's to secure the independence of Israel from Britain. The Arabs have no corner on the use of terror in the history of the Middle East. I also rather doubt that most important scientific inventions of the 19th and 20th centuries were the work of Jewish scientists (I could be wrong...). At least they certainly weren't Arabs, that's for sure.

The Secretary General of Hizbollah is also quite entertaining as he dances around the glaring fact that they obviously made a hideous miscalculation about the likely Israeli reaction. However, I suspect that he is quite right that as long as there is still one missile launcher, or one gunman, Hizbollah survives. How do you kill an idea, especially one that seems to appear to a large number of people?

Finally, while the President of Yemen may have funny eyes, most of what he says makes complete sense if you look at it from the particular Arab perspective that identifies Israel and the US as enemies, and regards Arab regimes that have made accomodations with Israel (or the US) as traitors. If I am not mistaken, this point of view is apparently held by large numbers of Arabs. I bet that his view of the proposed international force is quite widely held in the Arab world, too.

And as for references to redressing ancient historical wrongs: just what, then, is the vision of a Jewish homeland but a desire for a return to an ancient condition. Hasn't this desire kept the Jews going for centuries?

Cheers
 
I'm having trouble loading this vid.  What did he say about an international force?
 
For Quagmire....

Here is the transcript of the Yemeni President clip....

Yemenite President Ali Abdallah Saleh: I Hope Syria Will Join the War; The Jews May Leave the Middle East; Arab Countries Should Allow Transfer of Weapons, People to Lebanon and Palestine

Following are excerpts from an interview with President of Yemen Ali Abdallah Saleh, which aired on Al-Jazeera TV on August 1, 2006.

Interviewer: Do you expect the war to expand?

Ali Abdallah Saleh: Yes.

Interviewer: to include Syria?

Ali Abdallah Saleh: I would certainly hope that it expands. I would hope so, but the Israelis would not dare. They are frustrated in South Lebanon, so how could they expand the war? All Israeli cities would be within the range of the Syrian missiles. Syria is armed, and is ready for anything. It would be foolish, even more than foolish... I say in all honesty that the Israeli government is defeated. The Israeli army is also defeated by any standard. The Israeli government will fall. It will fall soon because it misjudged things. Israeli strategy is based on brief wars, on swift strikes. By now it has been 19 days, and the equation has changed. If Israel were to act foolishly and wage war against Syria, I expect Israel would find itself in an extremely difficult situation. Perhaps they would even leave the region, because their society is a mixture [of identities], full of contradictions.

[...]

Interviewer: Do you call upon the Syrian president to enter this war?

Ali Abdallah Saleh: No, I do not call upon Syria to enter the war. But if war is imposed upon it, Syria has the right to defend itself.

Interviewer: Regarding international forces...

Ali Abdallah Saleh: Why shouldn't we involve Syria?

Interviewer: I am asking because you said you were hoping for this.

Ali Abdallah Saleh: I hope that all the countries bordering with Israel, not just Syria, would enter the war. I meant the countries bordering with Israel. We will not enter the war officially, but we will open the borders to the fighters. We will allow the transfer of money and equipment, to support the Lebanese resistance and the Palestinian resistance in Gaza.

[...]

This war has become a duty incumbent upon us. Every Muslim has the individual duty to fight on this front.

Interviewer: Mr. President, do you support what has been said about incorporating Arab forces in the international force [in Lebanon]?

Ali Abdallah Saleh: I haven't heard this, but it is forbidden. I haven't heard about this, but international forces must not serve as a buffer between the Israeli enemy and the resistance. It's forbidden.

[...]

Ali Abdallah Saleh: I completely reject becoming a police force protecting the security of Israel. Even the agreements between Israel and its neighboring Arab regimes were signed under certain circumstances and have greatly restricted us. Some of these agreements include restrictions. Restrictions that apply to the regimes - keep them, but let the people, the masses, act. Let the people donate money, equipment, weapons, and young men who will join the resistance.

Interviewer: Do you think that today...

Ali Abdallah Saleh: Wait just a minute... Just as we helped Afghanistan to fight the Communist occupation back then - why not help our brothers in Palestine and in Lebanon, who have Arab blood, with mujahideen, with fighters. Why don't we help them, and send send money and missiles, like we sent to Afghanistan in order to fight the Communists? This is my opinion, and I present it to the Arab public. This is what we must do. If we do not enter [the war] as regimes, and if we say Hizbullah is dragging us into a war of its choosing - a war that we, the regimes, did not choose... In such a case, we will not enter the war as regimes, as regular armies, with our air forces and our missiles, but we should allow people to volunteer.

[...]

Interviewer: The secretary-general of Hizbullah said that this is a battle of the nation. Do you agree with him?

Ali Abdallah Saleh: Yes, I believe this is a battle for the Islamic nation, not the Arab nation.

Interviewer: Shimon Peres said this was a matter of life and death for Israel.

Ali Abdallah Saleh: That's his opinion. Shimon Peres is a senile old man. All he cares about is being in power. He makes coalitions with whoever reaches power. He is a power se

 
pbi said:
I also rather doubt that most important scientific inventions of the 19th and 20th centuries were the work of Jewish scientists (I could be wrong...). At least they certainly weren't Arabs, that's for sure.

For a simple confirmation, we can just look at the number of Jewish Nobel laureates since its inception. There are over 150.

In contrast, there are 7 Muslims. 1 for Chemistry, 1 for Literature, 1 for Physics and rather ironically, 4 FOR PEACE.  ::)


http://www.science.co.il/Nobel.asp
 
** UPDATE **

This is a five minute clip of what Nazrallah said yesterday. (August 3rd)

I find it a little disturbing in the sense that he is now blaming the entire war on the US and Bush.

Its almost as if he is laying the initial groundwork for the justification of Hezbollah terror attacks against Americans on US soil.


http://www.memritv.org/view.asp?P1=1219
 
CanadaPhil said:
For a simple confirmation, we can just look at the number of Jewish Nobel laureates since its inception. There are over 150.

In contrast, there are 7 Muslims. 1 for Chemistry, 1 for Literature, 1 for Physics and rather ironically, 4 FOR PEACE.  ::)


http://www.science.co.il/Nobel.asp

I am talking about the claim she makes in the video about the Jews being responsible for most major scientific discoveries/inventions: I don't think that is true. (It actually may not matter...). If you are talking about the Nobel peace prize (which this Israeli website you posted appears to discuss), I don't believe that is restricted to scientific  invention: it covers all types of activities that benefit the human condition.

I wonder, though: how do you know that seven Nobel Laureates were Muslim? Is religion a criteria for nomination? Or is it just that seven Laureates have Arabic names, or come from Arab countries? I don't see non-Jewish Nobel Laureates listed on this site. And, why would it be surprising that Muslims might work for peace, any more than it would be surprising for Jews, Christians or Confucuians?

Cheers
 
This subject has actually been looked at by many others before. There are plenty of sources for this info.

All I was doing was giving you just one source where it had the Jewish Nobel laureates listed. The major categories are Physics, Chemisty & Biomedical. It was a simple attempt to answer your question which sounded like you were questioning that ANY Jews were responsible for MANY of the major advances in modern times.

Here is another simple example.... Albert Einstein (luckily he was able to escape the Nazis before it was too late)

Also, look into the Manhattan project and look closely into the actual people involved in splitting the atom. 

Ms. Sultan was simply making a point about how a scattered race of 15 million earned the respect of the world with their great contributions in the advancement of modern science & technology, and on that point she is quite correct.

 
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