Peace, Propaganda & The Promised Land

[tamouh]

Rather arrogant of you.  You can spout all you want, but when questioned on it, you avoid answering.  Even when you respond as in the above post, you have avoided everything, asked and still have answered nothing.  Contribute to the discussion, other that with others propaganda, or leave the site.

That is your opinion and its fine with me. I'm responding as much as I can in an honest and unbiased way. I don't have any agenda nor any preference for any side of any conflict (also stated this many times before),yet, I'll respond always to 'twisted facts' , 'agenda driven posts' or items that touch me in a personal way.

You want to make a real argument, allow both sides to present what they believe. Instead, what happens anyone disagreeing with your views gets bashed , called names and threatened. If you can't handle the pressure of an intelligent argument, you shouldn't participate (this goes to myself too). Admitting a mistake will not hurt anybody, we're here to exchange thoughts and ideas. We'll disagree always since we seem to have different point of views over things, however, each side should be allowed to present its argument in full while respecting the other side of the argument.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

Shit or get off the pot.  If the ME don't want Israel there then maybe they should combine their military might and smite their mortal enemy.  If they can't get their shit together by now I doubt they every will. 

Or except the fact that they are here to stay and work towards an end. 

 

[paracowboy]

I twist words around? I was the first, in fact, the ONLY, person to defend you. Don't pretend to assume some sort of intellectual/moral superiority here. You have contributed nothing positive to this site.

You have been warned about your posting/trolling style several times previously. Modify it, or face consequences. Full stop.

And you will not speak slightingly of Canadian, or Canadian-allied soldiers again.

 

[tamouh]

This is my perception of democracy:

This IS Canada's war as our democraticly elected parliment sent us there. That means it's YOUR war whether you like it or not. That civilian administration running the Army NOW happens to have beat the party I think you voted for in the last election ( you know.. the Party that sent us there in the first place). Be an objector all you want...but the voters spoke and here we are. Protest all you want too, apparently not enough protested with your ballots the last election. Isn't democracy grand?

It is a grand and who run it are grandee ! You misunderstood my point, I'm not against the war in Afghanistan (in fact, I'm not even much for it....but since we're there lets finish the job instead of doing 1/2 a job).  My mention is to drag Canada into a war in the Middle East (Iraq, Iran, Lebanon, Israel, Syria...etc) .I didn't vote for any of those two parties. But what you said is correct, however, doesn't mean I shouldn't voice my concern , disapproval, comments on the way the government runs things. We all criticize the government, and it NOT un-Patriotic to criticize the government in a time of war. What is un-Patriotic is to stand against your country in its war.

 

[Bo]

An excellent documentary describing the current Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

It's a bit lengthy (80 minutes) but well worth it. Something to watch late at night when your bored of cruising army.ca 

Even the reviews at Rotten Tomatoes are favorable. http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/peace_propaganda_and_the_promised_land_us_media_and_the_israeli_palestinian_conflict/



http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-7828123714384920696&q=peace+propaganda



Mods, let me know if this should be placed in Radio Chatter. I noticed several members starting threads pointing to videos here so I figured it would be ok.

 

[tamouh]

I twist words around? I was the first, in fact, the ONLY, person to defend you. Don't pretend to assume some sort of intellectual/moral superiority here. You have contributed nothing positive to this site.

You have been warned about your posting/trolling style several times previously. Modify it, or face consequences. Full stop.

And you will not speak slightingly of Canadian, or Canadian-allied soldiers again.

Yes, you did for a moment.....I never forgot that on the 17 terrorist plot thread.

My contributions in your opinion are not positive, while to others have been informative and enlightening. I on the other hand acknowledge some posts from other members here have been interesting and informative (no matter whether I agree or disagree with them).

Last, again.....I've never insulted at any time or place a Canadian soldier, its against my conscious as a past member of the CF and against my morals. I know soldiers fight the wars they are told to fight whether they agree or disagree with it. Nevertheless, let me be clear I'll not stand by those soldiers convicted of war crimes, illegal or immoral actions. The CF doesn't tolerate such behaviour, nor I will.

 

[Infanteer]

Peace, Propaganda and the Promised Land.

What a grand title for the thread I'm designating for everyone to tell everyone else about who's screwing who over in the ME.

Keep this stuff off the other threads, they are for discussing the actual tactical situation on the ground, not who you think caused the Hurricanes to win the Stanley Cup.

 

[paracowboy]

My contributions in your opinion are not positive,

hardly my opinions alone. And this is not a discussion. You are being taken to task. Contribute in a productive manner, leave, or get thrown. Take heed.

 

[George Wallace]

Last, again.....I've never insulted at any time or place a Canadian soldier, its against my conscious as a past member of the CF and against my morals. I know soldiers fight the wars they are told to fight whether they agree or disagree with it. Nevertheless, let me be clear I'll not stand by those soldiers convicted of war crimes, illegal or immoral actions. The CF doesn't tolerate such behaviour, nor I will.

I find this a rather unusual statement.  None of us would condone the committing of War Crimes.  Why, though, have you brought it up?  It sounds like you are anti-military and making a comment that some Birkenstockwearinglonghairedfeminist Protester would spew out of ignorance of what is going on in the world.

Are you a Thief?  Are you a Leech on Canadian Society?  Canadians have fought and died so that you can have the Freedoms you are enjoying today, yet you sit here and spit on their graves with comments like that.  Are you stealing the Freedoms that others have Sacrificed so much for?  Are you a Leech on our Free and Democratic Society, contributing nothing, but taking all?

 

[tamouh]

I find this a rather unusual statement.  None of us would condone the committing of War Crimes.  Why, though, have you brought it up?  It sounds like you are anti-military and making a comment that some Birkenstockwearinglonghairedfeminist Protester would spew out of ignorance of what is going on in the world.

Not at all, I just have different vision of when to go to war and when to give politics a chance. My comments are in line with CF policies and there is nothing wrong with them.

 

[zipperhead_cop]

Peace, Propaganda and the Promised Land.

What a grand title for the thread I'm designating for everyone to tell everyone else about who's screwing who over in the ME.

No doubt with the gathered forces we will have a peace proposal hammered out by next Sunday.  :
And everyone will respect everyone elses opinions.  8)

:argument:

 

[George Wallace]

Not at all, I just have different vision of when to go to war and when to give politics a chance. My comments are in line with CF policies and there is nothing wrong with them.

I find this a rather unusual statement.  None of us would condone the committing of War Crimes.  Why, though, have you brought it up?  It sounds like you are anti-military and making a comment that some Birkenstockwearinglonghairedfeminist Protester would spew out of ignorance of what is going on in the world.

Did I say they weren't?  I just said it was odd that you should make that statement in this discussion.  It seems to be out of place.  It also seems to say something between the lines, that may not be complimentary, if you catch what I am saying.  It seemed 'derogatory' in its presentation.

 

[zipperhead_cop]

Not at all, I just have different vision of when to go to war and when to give politics a chance. My comments are in line with CF policies and there is nothing wrong with them.

Okay, Mr. Enlightened Insider Speaks-for-Arab Street, what diplomatic avenue should Israel have taken for this specific event, being the kidnapping of their soldiers?  Presto-Poof!  You are the PM of Israel on July 12.  So what should have happened?  Please don't be so pedantic as to outline what you would not have done.  I would love to hear what the non-military solution would be.  Here is your chance to actually answer a question without paper tigers and misdirection.  Are you up to the task?

 

[tamouh]

Keep this stuff off the other threads, they are for discussing the actual tactical situation on the ground, not who you think caused the Hurricanes to win the Stanley Cup.

ME is a situation that has no end. All parties want one thing....the same piece of land and all are willing to sacrifice everything at their disposal to reach that goal. Anyone involves themselves with it will be burnt in one way or another.

 

[tamouh]

Okay, Mr. Enlightened Insider Speaks-for-Arab Street, what diplomatic avenue should Israel have taken for this specific event, being the kindnapping of their soldiers?  Presto-Poof!  You are the PM of Israel on July 12.  So what should have happened?  Please don't be so pedantic as to outline what you would not have done.  I would love to hear what the non-military solution would be.  Here is your chance to actually answer a question without paper tigers and misdirection.  Are you up to the task?

Someone with an ego and military might will think lets crush them (just like Ariel Sharon thought will crush the PLO). Someone with a little bit more brain will seek a UN reoslution condemning Hezbollah attack, pressure the Lebanese government (threaten if necessary) to control its borders. Lebanon is a major ally to the US after the Syrians have withdrawn, this would have given a great opportunity to strengthen the US/Lebanese relationship, at the end swap prisoners with Lebanon (which will eventually happen).

Look guys, I'm not here to insult anyone's knowledge or intelligence, and I claim not to know more than you do. But I know about the ME more than many of you do because I've lived there and seen how this conflict has progressed. You want to be serious and open-minded to learn what the middle east, I'll do my best. But if we're here to make sarcastic remarks on each others then we shouldn't bother asking the questions..

Briefly, In the ME nothing changes....everything moves in a circle. Therefore, your best bet to know the future is to know the true history of events and guaranteed you'll see them repeat themselves many times over. When Hezbollah attacked the Israeli post, though I was hoping for peaceful solution, judging by the actions of previous Israeli governments, it was guaranteed that Israel would attack. Hezbollah I'm sure knew that off hand.

 

[George Wallace]

If we keep the decks clear, will you answer the questions?

What diplomatic avenue should Israel have taken for this specific event, being the kidnapping of their soldiers? 

If you were the PM of Israel on July 12, what should have happened? 

What do you think the non-military solution would be?




Again.  Here is your chance to actually answer a question without paper tigers and misdirection.  Are you up to the task?

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Quote,
(threaten if necessary)

Well since making threats is the height of stupidity if you would not back them up I must then assume from your answer that you would have done the same thing Israel did when Hezbollah said no.....

 

[zipperhead_cop]

Someone with an ego and military might will think lets crush them (just like Ariel Sharon thought will crush the PLO). Someone with a little bit more brain will seek a UN reoslution condemning Hezbollah attack, pressure the Lebanese government (threaten if necessary) to control its borders. Lebanon is a major ally to the US after the Syrians have withdrawn, this would have given a great opportunity to strengthen the US/Lebanese relationship, at the end swap prisoners with Lebanon (which will eventually happen).

UN.   :rofl:
But seriously, if Lebanon was such a friend to the US, then why didn't they make loud and aggressive appeals for help to dig out the Hezbollah militants running a good part of their country?  And why couldn't they do that now? 

Look guys, I'm not here to insult anyone's knowledge or intelligence, and I claim not to know more than you do. But I know about the ME more than many of you do because I've lived there and seen how this conflict has progressed. You want to be serious and open-minded to learn what the middle east, I'll do my best. But if we're here to make sarcastic remarks on each others then we shouldn't bother asking the questions..

Technically, there are a bunch of people here that know a lot more than we do.  Would you entertain the idea that because you are a product of that region (Jordan wasn't it?) you may have a bit of a cultural bias, and are a bit too close to the issue to be objective?  Not an accusation, just a thought. 

Briefly, In the ME nothing changes....everything moves in a circle. Therefore, your best bet to know the future is to know the true history of events and guaranteed you'll see them repeat themselves many times over. When Hezbollah attacked the Israeli post, though I was hoping for peaceful solution, judging by the actions of previous Israeli governments, it was guaranteed that Israel would attack. Hezbollah I'm sure knew that off hand.

Jeez, that's kind of a bleak attitude.  Nothing ever gets better?  Well then why not leave the war going and let them fight to the last one standing?  Perhaps Israel is sick of nothing getting better or changing, and are acting accordingly.  I agree that Hezbollah probably kicked the wasps nest with the full knowledge that a retaliatory strike would occur.  However, the political mouthpiece for Hezbollah has already stated that he didn't expect this reaction from Israel.  So one must wonder, who was really ready for this fight?  Seems to me Israel has been written off and presumed dead a few times in recent history when engaged in battles for their survival.  And then, lo and behold!  A stunning and decisive victory.  Egypt might have a comment or two on that idea. 
This fight has been a long time coming, and I don't think the IDF are going to blow it.  IMO they have a plan.

Edit:  Sorry, just saw the  "clear decks" comment from George.  I'll shut 'er down and stand by to be illuminated. 

 

[tamouh]

What do you think the non-military solution would be?

I said that earlier post, not sure if this is after you read it or not:

- Seek UN security council resolution condemning Hezbollah (easily will pass)
- Put pressure on Lebanon to secure its border, US can play major role in this as well since Lebanon government became a major US ally after the Syrian withdrawal
- Pursue avenue of swapping prisoners between Lebanon and Israel - official (not between Hezbollah and Israel).
- Lebanese army integrate Hezbollah within its ranks and deploy soldiers to the south on the border.
- The whole process in my opinion would have taken a month until the time to swap prisoners, and under the right pressure the army would have been deployed in about 3 months time.

Well since making threats is the height of stupidity if you would not back them up I must then assume from your answer that you would have done the same thing Israel did when Hezbollah said no.....

The political savvy option would be to ignore Hezbollah and deal with Lebanese government alone...Israel should have not paid any attention to Hezbollah , which would further illegitimate the organization within Lebanon. There were already strong calls against Hezbollah in the weeks leading to the attack.

It takes a compromise to make peaceful solution.... Israeli compromise would have been to ignore Hezbollah until the Lebanese are fedup with its aggressions. No one doubt Israel can launch attacks and cause massive havoc, however, knowing they had that option and choose not to use it will prove further to the Lebanese government and people there is nothing to fear from Israel.

 

[George Wallace]

So I take it that your answers are as follows:
If we keep the decks clear, will you answer the questions?  No.

What diplomatic avenue should Israel have taken for this specific event, being the kidnapping of their soldiers?  Threaten if necessary

If you were the PM of Israel on July 12, what should have happened?  Attack.

What do you think the non-military solution would be? Seek UN security council resolution condemning Hezbollah (easily will pass)
- Put pressure on Lebanon to secure its border, US can play major role in this as well since Lebanon government became a major US ally after the Syrian withdrawal
- Pursue avenue of swapping prisoners between Lebanon and Israel - official (not between Hezbollah and Israel).
- Lebanese army integrate Hezbollah within its ranks and deploy soldiers to the south on the border.
- The whole process in my opinion would have taken a month until the time to swap prisoners, and under the right pressure the army would have been deployed in about 3 months time.






Again.   Here is your chance to actually answer a question without paper tigers and misdirection.  Are you up to the task?
No.