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PERs : All issues questions...2003-2019

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PPCLI Guy said:
Another way to look at this is to do a better job of recognizing the "experiential pillar".   I know that this was discussed in great detail during the trg systems review that Gen Hiller imposed as CLS, but IM not so HO, we didn't go as far as we could have.   If a soldier is doing the job of Sect 2ic in a Bn, on ex and ops, why do we have to send him on a sect 2ic crse?   Why not empower the chain of command to assess the soldiers ability, and grant the qualification?

I think this might go a long way to solving a lot of problems that I've seen in the Militia world. Maybe to appease the standards gods it would be necessary to send the soldier in question on some sort of assessement administered by the local standards cell.
 
Andyboy said:
I think this might go a long way to solving a lot of problems that I've seen in the Militia world. Maybe to appease the standards gods it would be necessary to send the soldier in question on some sort of assessement administered by the local standards cell.

Or we can trust the chain of command...naaah, that will never work!

DAve
 
Very interesting discussion. A couple things that have sprung to mind as I was reading this past pages...

Do we even need the MCpl rank? Why not make Cpl's 2i/c, and streamline the chain of command? The MCpl rank was an almost artifical creation, and radically altered the NCO chain. Sergeants were raised to the senior NCO mess, and the entire chain wa lengthened and required much more time in to climb. I guess a better way to put would be, do we need two levels of private? they're essentially doing the same job, but for diferent pay.

Why not smooth out the chain, make Pte a rank with multiple pay grades, or even a "Senior" and "Junior" ranking, to recognize experience and time in, but make Cpl a MCpl-type position.

Now, back on topic; there is, justifiably, a lot of concern over experience and job knowledge in rapidly-promoted NCO's. I can see the importance of experience, but I think Canada has taken it too far to sustain an effective combat arms NCO structure. While it gives us a huge amount of quality in our NCO core, it also leads to relatively old NCOs, discouragement in junior ranks regarding the time required to be promoted, and difficulties in filling necessary NCO positions. I believe that we have, to a degree, strangled ourselves and that many of the experience/time in requirements we have for NCO's produces many personnel who are likely too old for their position (in what other army are section commanders in their thirties?), an unintentional encouragement of "corporals-for-life", and a smothering of keen, motivated young troops trapped under an almost petrified promotional structure.

The Canadian army fought all of its major conflicts with a very young NCO cadre. The US military is famous for its extremely fast promotion and young NCO's. The British Army forces soldiers out at an age where Canada would have them just making Warrant.
I fully believe that front-line soldiering is a young man's job - age and decades of experience should be valued and utilized, but not at the section level. In a worst-case scenario, in  combat it would not be unexpected for a platoon to lose a century of military experience in a single engagement, a waste of such knowledge.

I guess, in the end, I see our promotional structure as being the product of a peace time Army that could afford to take over a decade to make a Sgt, but, arguably, we are not a completely 'peacetime' army any more, and we have to compensate for this.
 
Canada has Mcpl and Cpls.  In the UK we have Lcpl and Cpls.  Samething, different name.  The Cpl rank lets people feel that they are progressing, which they are.  It also gives them some "pull" when they mentor Ptes.
 
I know that the fact that our NCOs, Snr NCOs and officers were all younger in war may seem like a valid point, but is it?  We are a Peacetime Army, as earlier stated, and as such our soldiers are not committed to combat 24 and 7.  It therefore takes us longer to give them the knowledge and training they require to survive on the battlefield.  Not to do so means that we will loose the knowledge. 

Some of us were lucky to be trained by WW II and Korea Vets.  I am sure that they were only able to pass on a fraction of their knowledge and skills, or more likely, we were only able to absorb a fraction of what they knew.  We, in turn, instructed and passed on as much as we could to younger soldiers, but again, only a fraction of our knowledge is being passed on.  Eventually, without war, many lessons are being forgotten.


GW
 
ex royal now flyer said:
I have only ever known one newly promoted MCpl from Pte relinquish his appointment because he felt he was not ready or capable.   He was still ISCC qualified and promoted the following year after spending the year in Coy Tpt.   Wonder how much he learned there?

How about administration & logistics? This may have made him a more well rounded NCO when he was latter promoted. These may not be the first skills you think of in the infantry but they are very important especially at the senior NCO & Officer level.
 
Military history isn't one of my strong points, but if I remember correctly, Canada's miltary was quite small in 1939. (I've just done some digging online. Source is www.thecanadianencyclopedia.com:)

Over 600 000 men served in the Canadian army during World War I. About 60 000 were killed. The majority of these men came straight from civilian life, and had never put a uniform on before they joined up. This was the largest army so far in Canadian history, and it could have been the nucleus of a large peacetime army. But when the war was over, the government chose again to maintain only a small army of about 4000 regulars backed by part-time militiamen. It also bought very little equipment. When a major war started again in September 1939, neither the regulars nor volunteers were really prepared for battle.

So, it would stand to reason that those that were in uniform at the beginning of the war flew up the rank, thereby creating a lot of young leaders in a short period of time. To me it seems neccesity was the reason, rather than anything else. I'm sure (positive actually) that a lot of these "screamers" did very well, but I'm also positive that some of these guys, who would have remained at the bottom of the totem pole if WW II hadn't happened, probably got a lot of good young soldiers killed, due to lack of experience, ability, smarts, etc.

Far from wanting to be an "Monday-morning quarterback", what happened, happened. Now, with the huge (well, not by US standards, but our biggest in 20 years) budget that we've received, and all of the new pers we are supposed to get in the next few years (I vaguely remember ~900 for the Armour Corps from a recent briefing... correct me if I'm wrong), we will see the requirement to push people up the chain again, not unlike in the mid '80's. It's deja vu all over again!!!! If we had looked further ahead (which I mentioned a bunch of posts back), we would have foreseen some of this happening, and looked at leadership training for more of the lower ranks, rather than the dribs and drabs that happened. This would have averted some of the crises that have occured, with many disheartened pers jumping ship, and kept people interested in getting ahead, or at least interested  ::)

I like what LCISTech said about the feeling that you have to promote someone to MCpl to fill a MCpl position. Why bother, if the person isn't qualified. A Cpl can easily do that job, and it can serve two roles: show the soldier (and the powers that be) that the soldier can do it, and avert the problem of pushing someone too far, too fast, and then not being able to reverse the mistake. Most of the times that they won't demote the person has more to do with people not wanting to admit that they were wrong to promote someone, and damn the consequences. I don't feel that they should keep someone in a position like that for too long (and there are regulations that prevent that) as a cost-cutting measure, or reason not to train someone to fill the position. I think that more often than not, most people in the CF are able to fill the next rank level handily (in fact, it's expected), at least temporarily, but that doesn't justify promoting somebody just because they "kept the bunk warm" for someone else, so to speak.

Again, whether we like it or not, particularly in the Combat Arms, we are going to see a lot more promotions, a lot earlier in peoples careers, and with the work load that we have, the training time isn't going to increase any time soon (do more with less.........), so we are going to have to make do. Hopefully we can all get it sorted out, and realize that it will be a lot of work for all concerned, and not drag our heels, hoping it will return to the "good old days" (they are always referred to as the good old days, but what made them so great? I think it's human nature to assume that everything in the past was always better than it is now, like: polio, small pox, huge infant mortality rates, no internet porn, etc........ anyway, that's a whole other thread right there).

As for trusting the chain of command, remember that trust is a two way street. Remember that when blanket policies are put into place: no drinking in the field because some jerk-off did something stupid; having to work 8 to 4 everyday, regardless of time spent in the field or deployed; treating soldiers like children because some aren't able to accept responsibilities for their actions. The list goes on. When those are reversed, I will start having more trust in the chain of command.

Al
 
To add to this, as I stated earlier, with the current crises of lack of NCOs, it seems to me that the chain of command is more likely to pull someone off the street to be an officer than accept a CFR. Why deny someone that obviously wants to take a position of leadership the opportunity just because you want him to fill a position at a junior leadership level. To give a real example, a MCpl in my unit wanted to take his CFR. He was denied on the basis of, and I quote
We want you as a Sargeant. We know you're well qualified, but it's easier to train an officer off the street.
It's because of decisions like these that people get disheartened and end up leaving the CF. From talking to this member, in his eyes, the only way he'll make an officer in our unit is to top out in the NCO levels as the RSM and then go to Captain. We all know how long that takes. By the time he makes it there, he'll be getting towards retirement so what's the point, other than the pay incentive :threat:.
 
Not everyone flies up in rank in wartime as rapidly as they are appointed to successively higher positions.  Turnover is more rapid in wartime due to both casualties and the increased demands - some people are simply found wanting under the pressure, whether in combat or behind it.  However, the jobs are also more focussed.  Much of the peacetime administrivia for which experience (time-in) is a necessary foundation simply is of little or no account in war.
 
Allan Luomala said:
As for trusting the chain of command, remember that trust is a two way street. Remember that when blanket policies are put into place: no drinking in the field because some jerk-off did something stupid; having to work 8 to 4 everyday, regardless of time spent in the field or deployed; treating soldiers like children because some aren't able to accept responsibilities for their actions. The list goes on. When those are reversed, I will start having more trust in the chain of command.

Al,

You are the chain of command...

Dave
 
Dave, I'm all too aware that I am in the chain of command. However, due to the "veto" power that the all-encompassing commision carries, a 2Lt with less time in the army than I have in pivot (a tanker term...) can nix any swell thought that I have. If push comes to shove, the 2Lt can veto an RSM (though I would love to see it.....).

I don't like sweeping generalizations (like saying that the chain of command can be trusted to do the right thing....) but I don't think it was the rank and file soldiers who implemented some of the GRRREEEEEAAAAATTTT policies I brought up (among many other winners). It was "politicians in uniform" who are more concerned with getting somewhere, and that somewhere is usually away from the soldiers that they SHOULD be concerned about, and is closer to the "halls of power" where they can make things better for themselves (and their buddies, cronies, lapdogs, etc, etc).

I'm not pointing fingers or elbows at anyone here, but this is my perception of what the chain of command (and I'm not only saying it's people with the Queen's Commision, if you follow my drift......) has wrought on the CF. To say I'm bitter is only partially true. To say I'm disillusioned is probably closer to the mark. My own personal "Waterloo" (though I was only indirectly effected personally) was the Somalia Scandal. I don't think I need to say anymore..........

Al
 
Allan Luomala said:
My own personal "Waterloo" (though I was only indirectly effected personally) was the Somalia Scandal. I don't think I need to say anymore..........Al

Seen.
 
When I was in 2 RCR, 88 to 91, almost everyone that I knew going to ISCC was a private with less than 4 years in. I was offered after about a year and half in and didn't go as I had already decided to leave. Did this change at some point?

As it turns out I both regret that decision and am thankful for it at the same time. Life is good now but I miss the excitement.
 
I have been curious for a while about the views that people have on the difference between todays infancy and the old school infantry. I find that there is no respect from the new towards the old and the old being bitter about it. I also see way to much micro-management within a Pl. I feel, and this may offend a few, that the old ways were better. I would like some feed back about this because this seems to me to be far more important than debating the difference between units.
 
Define "old infantry".  Cold War?  Pre Croatia?  Post Somalia?

Dave
 
PPCLI Guy beat me to the punch. What, by your lights, were the "old days"?

Cheers.
 
ahh the "old" days...when centurion was a rank not a tank...when we used to go to the armouries in a snowstorm up hill barefoot because we had to hand the combat boots at the end of parade night back to the crusty CQ...

tess

 
Well you're deffinitely right about the too much micro-management bit.  Seems like everyoe above the rank of Sgt feels that the only way to justify their existence is to constantly harass and "correct" anyone they outrank.
 
come on 48th,

You know we have had the micro managing out of the wazoo since Jesus was issued his kilt.  Shirley has been around a long time and he was a big Manager de Le Micro!!  And he was not the first senior guy that did that either.

Those types have been around for a while.

tess

 
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