Personal Rationalization of Violence

[Pte. Bloggins]

Amen to that. 

 

[Bav2002]

pbi, Mad Max, etc.  you dont know me.  I can understand how people could be hard pressed by some of my opinions - ofcourse, i am questioning the beliefs of many soldiers.  I am a damn good soldier, i look out for all of my buddies and work to the best of my ability.  I think this topic scares a lot of people, but as one meets new people, as i have learned myself, you will begin to think in different ways.

A good friend of mine for years is an immigrant from south eastern europe.  He's told me stories that could blow my ears off - he had grown up in war all his life.  He has allways said that one can never understand war unless it has hit your own home.  Being, we think very differently of war and death simply because in our lives nobody has shelled any canadian cities, or killed our families on OUR OWN LAND. 

I come from a country myself that has felt effects of civil war (My english )  Not in my time however...

I would not die for a country but i would die for my blood, family, etc.  If canada was under a threat, i would do all duties to my best abilities.  Even if i was forced to fight against my beleifs, i WOULD fight becuase of my fellow soldiers welfare. 

MarineRjohntomas' post was very interesting, I ask the question however - why must you test yourself in the face of war?  What is the fufillment?

Passion, courage, loyalty - all charateristics we hear of soldiers every day.  They seem merely surface characteristics, look deep down, see who we really are.

 

[pbi]

Bav2002: IMHO your most recent post represents a bit of a change from your original position. Originally, you said:

I have a hard time continuing to serve in the armed forces when i see or hear of people being killed because "he said so"   or "for the country"   "freedom".  

and also

I have a hard time understanding how a soldier could kill another soldier due to political reasons.   No matter how hard it boils down to, reasons for war are allways a political matter.    Sure you hear how it is ones duty and what not, protecting canada.   But really, It feels as a soldier myself, were all pupets.   There is no way possible to rationalize the right to kill another person, maybe its LAWFUL - but not RIGHT

But then in a later post, once challenged, you went on to insist:

I am a damn good soldier, i look out for all of my buddies

I fail to understand how a person holding the beliefs you outlined in your first post could be a good soldier, or indeed any kind of soldier. Then, most telling, you went on to say:

I would not die for a country but i would die for my blood, family, etc.   If canada was under a threat, i would do all duties to my best abilities.   Even if i was forced to fight against my beleifs, i WOULD fight becuase of my fellow soldiers welfare.  

So, it seems to me that you have abandoned your original position, or at least modified it. From stating that you are unable to understand how soldiers could kill for country or for politics (the idea of a country being a political construct, as far as I know), you end up by saying that you are a good soldier who would die for "blood", for family, for Canada, and for your felow soldiers' welfare.

In listing those reasons, you essentialy outlined the generally accepted reasons (more or less) why soldiers fight. So, I have to come to the conclusion that maybe you really are a "good soldier". but perhaps just a little confused (or just wanting to crank us up??)

Cheers

 

[Mad Max]

Nope-he ain't a good soldier.He's just a dumb kid who joined the Militia for a pay check. I served in Croatia and Bosnia, and that "I would die for my blood" thing just pisses me off.

 

[c_canuk]

Mad Max...

say you are in the field, just helped your section secure a position and a small child is screaming at the top of it's lungs cause it got clipped by a stray round, your section commander orders you to kill it cause it will give away your position and attract attention...

do you do it?

a Soldier who doesn't think about his orders; does that make him a good soldier or a war criminal?

If you think the Canadian soldier should be a good soldier by not examining his orders, I personally think you are way off base.

 

[Mad Max]

Wow! That's a great question! And how long did it take you to come up with that hypothetical? I mean, its real obvious to a good ol' Robot Boy like myself that I'm WAY outta ma league here! If I had a sockful of horse crap right now, I'd be electronically slapping you in the face with it.... Troops, Troops, Troops, if you're gonna try this on, make sure you know your size first! My God! NEXT!

 

[Gunner]

Let's take the level of intensity down a couple of notches or I will lock this thread.

 

[TCBF]

Good idea, lets cool it off a bit.  All of you guys who still live in your mother's basement have got to stop provoking "Mad Max".  His desk is 3 1/2 feet from mine, and it's hard to relax during coffee break and lunch when he checks army.ca and sh_ts himself a cat. 

Tom

 

[Chags]

Wow..  I love this site..  What an interesting thread??!  I hope you don't lock it.  You are actually getting to hear what real soldiers think about their role in the military.  Its a tough world out there, and I don't think certain people should be partaking in the conversation.. unless you know what you are talking about..  let the pro's handle this one.

 

[The Bat]

Gunner
i understand that your directing staff but how can i take you seriously with sesame street guys in the back ground or did Bert and Ernie become Killers over night  ;D.  i feel that people have a right to say things, for what they believe in this is a free country i enjoy butt heads that get on this site and talk about there experience that they had when they heard it by rumors.

Keep up the good work

 

[muskrat89]

If you examine that Avatar closely, those ar indeed killer muppets, complete with weapons and cigarettes....

I wonder where Gunner ever got that pic?? 

 

[Mad Max]

Finally! It's about time I got some supporting fire! I was just about to fix bayonets and go over the top, screaming "Death to those who don't have the brains to be dangerous". Go rapid, boys! Don't worry about resupply- Pushpinder and Jugdish are carrying enough ammo to kill the Chinese Army!

 

[big bad john]

I heard that Ernie was in the Paras.

 

[TCBF]

"Weapons and cigarettes"

Well, weapons aren't scary.  In fact, they are one of the three pillars of democracy.  But cigarettes, now THAT's scary.

I don't know about Ernie in the Paras, but what about all the heat those teletubbies took for their lifestyle?  What a load, I mean, four guys living in a BOMB SHELTER for Pete's sake, what could be more macho than that?  Prob'ly had one heck of a gun collection.

Tom

 

[Gunner]

Gents,

Army.ca is for everyone to have a forum to discuss issues.  However, fo somewhere else if you want to engage in flame wars.  Keep the level of disussion civil so everyone can patricipate.  A reminder that we all signed up and agreed to the conduct guidelines:

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To sum up: Use your common sense when posting.

http://army.ca/forums/threads/24937.0.html

Finally, don't be dissin Bert and the crew.  I don't normally have an avatar but I have some time on my hands to try out some different options.

Cheers  

 

[Gunner]

http://www.ixtreme.com/default.asp?title=home

Almost forgot, the picture was obtained from this website. 

 

[Bav2002]

I can understand how some of the egos on this board could have been threatened - I've questioned something i dont think many people could understand, let alone i could explain in writing.  pbi, i know i am a good soldier, i dont think it is anyones right however to tell what I am or not, besides YOU DONT KNOW ME - .  And Mad Max, thats very interesting that youve been to croatia and bosnia.  I dont want to compare credentials however croatia and bosnia, although dangerious places, WERNT WAR ZONES BUDDY DURING PEACEKEEPING, right on! dangerious, but not too too dangerious fun.  I dont like to be called a dumb kid, infact, thats rather childish of you yourself.  Anyways, enough of this. 

 

[mainerjohnthomas]

Bav2002 I don't think it is the ego's (mostly) that are being threatened, I think that by questioning the validity of others reasons for choosing to serve, you are (unintentionally) questioning their honour.  To a civvy, that word may have lost all definition, to us it has not.  My old man once told me that it doesn't matter what the soldier beside you tells you his reasons for being there are, 90% are BS on some level anyway, what matters is if they do the job, and cover your back.  You say you are a good soldier, and I take you at your word.  Maybe you have the same problem a lot of people in the 21st century do, you cannot accept that duty, honour, and patriotism are valid reasons, even when they are driving you.  It doesn't matter what brought you to the ranks, when it drops in the pot, if you shut up and soldier, not even Mad Max will care if you sing hari-krishna hymns or read Chairman Mao's little red book for inspiration.  In the end, it is a soldiers deeds that matter.  If it fights like a soldier, and dies like a soldier, then by the gods it was a soldier.

 

[JBP]

     I remember when we were put on 24hr notice to deploy to the gulf, and filled out our wills and said our goodbyes.   I made my peace with my gods (I'm one of those annoying non christian types), and prepared myself to do my duty.   I won't say I was thrilled with the prospect of getting killed, but in all honesty, after years of training, the urge to test yourself in the fire, to face the ultimate test was strong.   It's not like I was burning with the desire to kill people, actually, that wasn't really in my thoughts.   I wanted to face the test my father faced in the Congo, my Granfather faced at Normandy, his father at Ypres.   I wanted to know if I was equal to the task.   I had the training, I had the knowledge, I had the desire; but did I have what it took for real.   Saddam collapsed before our deployment overseas, we were all worked up for a war that was over.   I do regret not having the chance to fight.   Civilians who hear this paint me as some sort of psycho, but that is civvy BS.   All of us who served prepared ourselves for war in the service to our country, how many of us who never had to do our duty in the face of enemy fire, day after day, week after week, will always wonder if we would have passed that test?  

I commend you for your honesty. I takes guts to post something like that, I've never been in your position and hope I never have to be but I'm sure the time will come one day IMHO. Regardless, cudos to you for having said what's been in many of our hearts and minds. It's something you cannot really explain, I've tried. It's not that you WANT to kill, or be killed of course, just want to measure yourself up. Reminds me of a moth heading for the flame in a way... Lol...

Anyways, again, big huge CUDOS to you!

Joe

 

[pbi]

I can understand how some of the egos on this board could have been threatened - I've questioned something i dont think many people could understand, let alone i could explain in writing

IMHO it has very little to do with anybody's ego, and rather more to do with some pretty double-jointed arguing you were doing, and that I think I pointed out to you, and that you still have really not explained IMHO.

pbi, i know i am a good soldier, i dont think it is anyones right however to tell what I am or not, besides YOU DONT KNOW ME -

If you go back and examine my second post, I admitted that this might be the case.(assuming your later posts were genuine...) . As for being judged here: well, welcome to the arena, Gladiator: just look out for the lions. In this virtual forum, we cannot and probably will not ever know each other to any great degree. Therefore, we will be judged against two criteria: our overt experience levels (shown in our Profiles), and the quality and content of what we post. These will always (for lack of anything more substantive) have a great influence on how you are judged. And judged you will be, to paraphrase Yoda. You may "know" that you are a good soldier: your challenge is to convince people here of that, given the rather ambiguous stance you originally took;

I dont want to compare credentials however croatia and bosnia, although dangerious places, WERNT WAR ZONES BUDDY DURING PEACEKEEPING, right on! dangerious, but not too too dangerious fun

IMHO you just shot another magazine into your other foot. I'm not even going to provide a detailed response to this except to suggest that you ask a Canadian soldier who has been under fire and fired shots in anger and see what he says about that. Try one of the Medak boys. Combat is combat, bavvy boy.

I dont like to be called a dumb kid, infact, thats rather childish of you yourself.

Then stop attracting hostile fire to yourself by advancing illogical and contorted arguments that remind me of my 15 year old.

Anyways, enough of this. 

Indeed.

Cheers.