Pics from Op Athena

[MJP]

Kev,

Well I'd be lying if I said I wanted to stay.  There are quite a few issues as you know all to well, but they are not for these means.

 

[bossi]

Hang in there, bud.

It's interesting - during some of the very first planning meetings at LFCA, I remember come comments made with respect to the initial recce - basically, the general said "... nobody stays more than six months, because the conditions are poor - extremely poor."

I have to hand it to him - some people scoffed, saying "it can't be THAT bad".
But, with the benefit of 20-20 hindsight, the general was bang on.
I went four months before my HLTA, and it wasn't easy
(for anybody who doesn't understand, look at it this way - it really is like being in prison, complete with machine guns in the guard towers - you're locked up for six months, not everybody gets to go "outside the wire" and even when they do, it's no picnic - you never know if/when you're going to be attacked, and NEVER forget - Canada has no land mines).

So, notwithstanding any other "issues" (we're all human), when it's time to come home, it's time.

 

[Bartok5]

Mark,

I agree enitirely - when "ït is time", it is time.   And I will be the last person to tell "my tour sucked more than your tour" stories.   Each tour is what it is, and the context often offsets the physical realities.  

When my last "tour" deployed overseas, we did so with no redeployment date.   We expected to fight the war until it was time to come home, and most of us left in January expecting to come home at Xmas (at the earliest).   We had no HLTA plan, nor any R&R plan.   We went to war, and expected that the "powers that be" would bring us home when it appropriate to do so.   We lived in 4-man Recce tents (2 per) on a gravel surface.   We ate MREs and IMPs for 6 months, with a few BBQs thrown in after the 3 month point.   Our contact with reality was limited to to 20 minutes of sattelite phone card per week for the first 3 months until we got the DIN.  

Such is life at the "pointy end".   Don't like it or can't handle the prospect of an open-ended tour?   Turn in your kit.   At the end of the day, you are a soldier who is expected to go and do the things that your nation's citizens demand (through their politiical representation).   Suck it up Buttercup, or find another line of work.  

If you choose to be a soldier, then you'd best be prepared to dance when the music starts.   There are no half-measures.....

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

I thought we just didn't have anti-pers mines.

 

[excoelis]

I take issue with spending 40 million or whatever dollars on a CAMP in a country that takes most of the first tour to complete, is built to sustain a number of people that is scaled back shortly after completion, and offends every sensibility that's been bred into me.

I'll take the 'PATROL BASE' mentality any day.  I'll galdly eat rations and live like I was trained to when overseas.  Did it before.  Keeps you focused on the task at hand.  It beats the hell out of having your F ech surrounded by people who can't function if they don't shower twice a day, get their three hot and a cot, and can't sleep without their 'nightcap'.  All those amenities are a complete fucking waste of money in my opinion.  Trying to build a little slice of Canada, in the middle of a country that has comparatively nothing, is ludicrous.  It's a goddamn false sense of security, it confuses the priorities of the soldiers, and it really only serves the fat fucks who work bankers hours in an operational theater and then fuck the troops off if they show up a few minutes 'after hours' to try and sort out some admin between shifts on their 24 and 7 job.

I was on Roto 0 and have been told that in all probability I will deploy with my Recce Dogs on Roto 4.  I hope to hell things change by then.

Sorry folks had to get that off my chest - END RANT..........................

 

[KevinB]

I'll take the 'PATROL BASE' mentality any day.  I'll galdly eat rations and live like I was trained to when overseas.  Did it before.  Keeps you focused on the task at hand.  It beats the heck out of having your F ech surrounded by people who can't function if they don't shower twice a day, get their three hot and a cot, and can't sleep without their 'nightcap'.  All those amenities are a complete ******* waste of money in my opinion.  Trying to build a little slice of Canada, in the middle of a country that has comparatively nothing, is ludicrous.  It's a goddamn false sense of security, it confuses the priorities of the soldiers, and it really only serves the fat fucks who work bankers hours in an operational theater and then **** the troops off if they show up a few minutes 'after hours' to try and sort out some admin between shifts on their 24 and 7 job.

YUP

 

[Infanteer]

Beautiful....

Some of the stuff I've been reading on the kind of expeditionary conflicts we've been sent to holds that the huge, cozy, 7/11-like camps actually have an adverse affect on operations to "pacify" (for any lack of a better term) foreign societies.   Here are some of the reasons that have been given:

1)   We isolate ourselves from those who would be our allies - providing a clear delination between "foreign occupier" and "occupied locals".

2)   We provide one big, fat target for anyone that wants to poke a stick at us (put all your eggs in one basket?!?).

3)   We lose mobility and flexibility by tieing ourselves to a big, fat self-sustaining base camp (requiring a good amount of troops for defence).

4)   Complacency sets in when running creature comforts begins to interject in mission focus (This is the scariest one - I think we risk being overun while waiting for the internet or sitting in the theater watching the latest batch of DVD's).

5)   We promote the notion of a large, centralized bureaucratic headquarters; the defining feature of a large pyramid of decision makers.   This is thought to be counter-intuitive to a flattened, decentralized C2 structure that is touted as necessary to get inside enemy decision-cycles (see that flexibility and mobility thing again).

6)   The Big Base Camp mentality tends to attract unwanted or un-needed guests, providing a distraction and a further siphone of resources.

 

[bossi]

The Big Base Camp mentality tends to attract unwanted or un-needed guests, providing a distraction and a further siphone of resources.

Yup, and some of these visitors go back to the ivory towers (where they can stuff their faces full with Tim Horton's, as only they can do) with the attitude "... it's not so bad ...".
However, they overlook the fact that they were only there six days, not six months.

Yes, there are those who are astute enough to really understand, but ... there are so many others who are intellectually and/or ethically bankrupt.

 

[pbi]

Such is life at the "pointy end".   Don't like it or can't handle the prospect of an open-ended tour?   Turn in your kit.   At the end of the day, you are a soldier who is expected to go and do the things that your nation's citizens demand (through their politiical representation).   Suck it up Buttercup, or find another line of work.

We have bred into our people, over the last 30 years, that a tour means six months max, includes nice R&R and HLTA, and involves messes, a nice fat hard camp, etc. etc. Cyprus in its final years was a ludicrous example of worrying about the wrong things: we were taking suits and messkit on a deployed operation!

Now, I am the first to say that I like a hot shower and a good meal, and a non-bug infested place to sleep as much as anybody. More probably, because I'm old and lazy.   And, I acknowledge that soldiers will instinctively begin to improve their "holes" no matter what the chain of command does (or doesn't do). And, I acknowledge that over the last decade the Army has had the institutional crap kicked out of it by the media, the public, the "brown envelope" crew, etc about poor QOL and not caring about the troops.

But, all of that aside, when I see the US Army types here in country for a year (with NO guarantee of a fixed repat date...), or when I attended a Portuguese African vets dinner in Winnipeg and listened to them talk about three years in theatre with no home leave, or when I hear about our troops in WWII deployed for years, I get a slight twinge of guilt.

Have we bred an Army that is unable to "live hard" any more? (and I'm certainly NOT "living hard", BTW....) Or are we just providing a reasonable level of QOL to offset the other BS that troops face in theatre? Further, are we really that different from our Allies in this regard, and are they less effective because of it? I don't know: what do you think? Cheers.

 

[Mortar guy]

I spent two weeks in Julien last year and I was stunned by the level of creature comforts at that camp (especially for a Roto 0). You guys are absolutely correct in saying that those amenities mostly benefitted the REMFs and PONTIs because I never saw any of my RCR brothers at the mess watching videos or playing video games in the Internet cafe. I am pretty sure that the vast majority of soldiers, NCOs and Officers in the 3 RCR Bn Gp spent what little down time they had in the gym or in their racks. I say this because (without getting into details) their patrol schedule was freakin insane! On the other side of the coin you have CMTT, the Pay Office, Supply or NCE effectively shutting down at 1700! I won't get into Camp Mirage cause that place was friggin luxurious. Here are some of my observations re. these types of camps:

1) There were a large number of no-hook privates in Camp Julien and NCOs and Officers I spoke to almost all told me stories about the new guys complaining about the living conditions. While, granted, it is like a prison and it is dangerous, its better than what I had in Kosovo and it was way better than Somalia or even many camps in Bosnia/Croatia early on. I am a little worried that these same soldiers might shut right down if deployed to a theatre without internet, wide-screen TVs and a CANEX.

2) Even though the 'pointy end' has been greatly reduced for Rotos 2 onward, the NCE seems to have remained friggin massive! I saw an ORBAT for the Roto 2-3 NCE (I work in the LS so I see things like this) and I was shocked. Suffice it to say that it is at least as big as when we had 1800 troops in theatre. I do not understand why we require a 100+ man NCE for a Recce Sqn and Inf Coy. I would be willing to be that if they were living in recce tents, eating mostly IMPs, the NCE would be about 25 people.

3) Recent the NCE Comd (Col Sirois?) told Peter Worthington that the aim of Canadians in theatre was to ensure that all Canadians got home safely (or words to that effect). I realize we should always strive to minimize casualties but we are not there just to minimize Canadian casualities - we could do that much better in Petawawa! Perhaps this is a reflection of the fortress mentality and I believe it is an indication that Op ATHENA has lost its focus and its raison d'etre. I sincerely hope the Col was misquoted because the last thing we need is to suck back into our protective shell in Afghanistan.

OK, I invite you all to tear my post apart - it's 0530 and I haven't had my coffee yet so I expect it doesn't make any sense! Cheers.

Alex

 

[excoelis]

Apologise for hijacking the 'hero' pics

I better jump in before we shit all over the tail - like on winter ex when you don't turn the snowshoe tails outwards

Without argument the rear ech provides a vital function.  My point is everyone in an operational theater should bear some of the responsibility of force protection.  I'm sure some of them would love to lend a hand.  Some of them would need a swift kick in the ass to get them going.  If everyone gets the same benefits overseas, why shouldn't everyone put in the same hours.  WRT bringing civvies to theater - don't even get me started >

This army is getting so soft it is scary!!!

It's a Catch-22 situation.  The QOL amenities are useless if those that need them the most are too busy to appreciate them.

 

[Infanteer]

3 excellent posts.

Mortar guy,

2) Even though the 'pointy end' has been greatly reduced for Rotos 2 onward, the NCE seems to have remained friggin massive! I saw an ORBAT for the Roto 2-3 NCE (I work in the LS so I see things like this) and I was shocked. Suffice it to say that it is at least as big as when we had 1800 troops in theatre. I do not understand why we require a 100+ man NCE for a Recce Sqn and Inf Coy. I would be willing to be that if they were living in recce tents, eating mostly IMPs, the NCE would be about 25 people.

Excellent point; it once again validates the lingering idea I have that our military needs a complete overhaul (paradigm shift) in the way we view C2.  I noticed the same thing on tour at the tail end of SFOR.  The "divisional slice" is simply too large.

 

[KevinB]

I would look further to the civilian participation (CANCAP SNC/LAVALIN) in OP Athena.
You can't swing a dead cat around any of the amenities w/o hitting a civilian "worker" be it the mess, Net Cafe etc.

Now of this "warzone" tour is minimally manned - why do we have hundreds of civilian workers?


The NSE and NCE suffer the same fate.

For a tour that effectively only employs the Recce Sqn how can we justify the 700 pers not to mention the civilians?

  Having been there I could justify 350 some odd positions...

 

[Gunner]

Wow, lots of belly aching going on here!    :   Don't even know where to start.    ???   While I agree that Camp Julien is "welfare creep run amok", if you have been on bases in Banja Luka, Sarajevo, even Bagram our Camp isn't all that different and pales in comparison.   Even Camp Warehouse with its national cafe's is nice to take a break at (and 7 day a week shopping for DVDs).   ISAF HQ is the same.   So my point is, so what if Camp Julien has good amenities.   If we were sitting in the middle of a defensive position for six months, we would still be complaining.

Yup, and some of these visitors go back to the ivory towers (where they can stuff their faces full with Tim Horton's, as only they can do) with the attitude "... it's not so bad ...".However, they overlook the fact that they were only there six days, not six months.

Mark, come on.   The people you are slagging probably have alot more time overseas than you do.   I refuse to believe that the people that come overseas come up with ways to screw troops around.

But, all of that aside, when I see the US Army types here in country for a year (with NO guarantee of a fixed repat date...), or when I attended a Portuguese African vets dinner in Winnipeg and listened to them talk about three years in theatre with no home leave, or when I hear about our troops in WWII deployed for years, I get a slight twinge of guilt.

PBI - Comparing apples and oranges (then and now).   I salute all those who served overseas for up to six years without any leave at home, but we don't live in the 30s/40s anymore.   The US approach is different from ours but which country has troops refusing to deploy overseas?   We don't offer cosmetic surgery for our troops either to lure them to stay in.   Should we?

1) There were a large number of no-hook privates in Camp Julien and NCOs and Officers I spoke to almost all told me stories about the new guys complaining about the living conditions. While, granted, it is like a prison and it is dangerous, its better than what I had in Kosovo and it was way better than Somalia or even many camps in Bosnia/Croatia early on. I am a little worried that these same soldiers might shut right down if deployed to a theatre without internet, wide-screen TVs and a CANEX.

Mortar Guy, this is my third tour and there are whiners on every one of them.   It's human nature to whine.   When I was deployed to Africa we didn't have any of the things you mentioned and we made do with what we had access to.

2) Even though the 'pointy end' has been greatly reduced for Rotos 2 onward, the NCE seems to have remained friggin massive! I saw an ORBAT for the Roto 2-3 NCE (I work in the LS so I see things like this) and I was shocked. Suffice it to say that it is at least as big as when we had 1800 troops in theatre. I do not understand why we require a 100+ man NCE for a Recce Sqn and Inf Coy. I would be willing to be that if they were living in recce tents, eating mostly IMPs, the NCE would be about 25 people.

To a certain extent you have fixed overhead for the NCE no matter how many troops you have in theatre. So, where do you want to cut?   HSS, ASIC, NCCIS?   How about the NCE proper? PSO, PAO, etc.   I don't have any problem some of this stuff but other people in theatre would.   You mention Recce and Inf, but what about all the other slices you don't quote (NSE, CANCAP, CFPSA, etc, etc, etc).   Again, the actual NCE HQ proper is only about 40 personnel (cut out all the multinational staff (ie PBI), MPs, CIMIC, NCCIS, HSS, etc) and there really aren't very many to do all the national and in theatre liaison.   Where do you want to cut? There is risk involved in each cut.

3) Recent the NCE Comd (Col Sirois?) told Peter Worthington that the aim of Canadians in theatre was to ensure that all Canadians got home safely (or words to that effect). I realize we should always strive to minimize casualties but we are not there just to minimize Canadian casualities - we could do that much better in Petawawa! Perhaps this is a reflection of the fortress mentality and I believe it is an indication that Op ATHENA has lost its focus and its raison d'etre. I sincerely hope the Col was misquoted because the last thing we need is to suck back into our protective shell in Afghanistan.

You should know better than to quote a reporter because you are only getting his limited perspective.   LCol Sirois was the TFK COS on Roto 1, Col Ellis is the TFK Comd Roto 2.   If you can tell me of anything Roto 2 has not done because it is deemed to risky I would be very interested in hearing it.

My point is everyone in an operational theater should bear some of the responsibility of force protection.

excoeitis - Everyone does have a responsibiltiy.   Do you know how force protection is organized in Camp Julien?

WRT bringing civvies to theater - don't even get me started

Different thread to discuss.  

[Excellent point; it once again validates the lingering idea I have that our military needs a complete overhaul (paradigm shift) in the way we view C2.   I noticed the same thing on tour at the tail end of SFOR.   The "divisional slice" is simply too large.

Maybe, but once again all of the personnel in one organization are not all related to Command and Control.   They have line functions and are grouped into the NCE for organizational purposes (too small to be independent).

Now of this "warzone" tour is minimally manned - why do we have hundreds of civilian workers?

Kevin, the civilians are just not supporting Canadians, they are also supporting the hundreds of other occupants of Camp Julien.

For a tour that effectively only employs the Recce Sqn how can we justify the 700 pers not to mention the civilians?   Having been there I could justify 350 some odd positions...

Kevin, smoke and mirrors.   Our declared assets are about 20% of our contribution. What about all the other assets that support ISAF in terms of providing camp services, Force Protection in south Kabul, Role2+ Medical Facility, etc, etc that are not "declared".   Canada is providing more than "just a recce sqn".

Apologize for the long post and I'll try to maintain oversite of this topic in order to respond.

   

 

[Infanteer]

To a certain extent you have fixed overhead for the NCE no matter how many troops you have in theatre. So, where do you want to cut?  HSS, ASIC, NCCIS?  How about the NCE proper? PSO, PAO, etc.  I don't have any problem some of this stuff but other people in theatre would.  You mention Recce and Inf, but what about all the other slices you don't quote (NSE, CANCAP, CFPSA, etc, etc, etc).  Again, the actual NCE HQ proper is only about 40 personnel (cut out all the multinational staff (ie PBI), MPs, CIMIC, NCCIS, HSS, etc) and there really aren't very many to do all the national and in theatre liaison.  Where do you want to cut? There is risk involved in each cut.

Geez, that's alot of letters....

 

[Gunner]

TLAs and FLAs, gotta love them  ;D

 

[Spr.Earl]

Yeah MJP and I are all JTF    8)   - I wish cool hair and all the medic chicks you can eat...   ;

Yup,the JTF would have had me until they learned I was kicked out of Boy Scouts for eating Brownies.

 

[bossi]

Mark, come on.   The people you are slagging probably have alot more time overseas than you do.   I refuse to believe that the people that come overseas come up with ways to screw troops around.

Gunner, come on.   You, of all people, should realise the consequences of misdirected fire ...
It's obvious you don't know me, or you would never have slagged me in public by saying what you did.

I'm taking direct aim (vice indirect) at the people I know who've never been overseas except on jammy junkets
(refuse to believe me at your peril - I know these frauds personally, and I also know how they screw troops around.   I know from whence I speak.  Want real life examples?   No, it's too early in the morning for me to go off the handle ... later).

As an aside, the people I know and respect most are the quiet ones with two or more rows of ribbons, who do everything they can for the soldier.  It's a shame I had to state the obvious, however as pointed out in another thread we sometimes do ourselves a disservice by remaining silent in the face of relentless fire (whether it be slander or abuse, but that's a topic for another thread ...).

 

[KevinB]

Gunner,
  The wonderful subject our our declared verus undeclared ISAF strength:

More to follow when I land in Ottawa.

 

[Gunner]

Gunner, come on.  You, of all people, should realise the consequences of misdirected fire ...
It's obvious you don't know me, or you would never have slagged me in public by saying what you did.

My apologies if you feel slagged.  It was not my intent to do so.  There are always bad people in an organization...its human nature.

I'm taking direct aim (vice indirect) at the people I know who've never been overseas except on jammy junkets (refuse to believe me at your peril - I know these frauds personally, and I also know how they screw troops around.  I know from whence I speak.  Want real life examples?  No, it's too early in the morning for me to go off the handle ... later).

There are always some, I repeat some, officers and NCMs that want to come over and â Å“see what its likeâ ?.  I could tell you stories from Bosnia (the number of 30 days TAVs â “ entitling them to a medal â “ were there, but unusual.  Comds tried to shut them down as much as possible.

As an aside, the people I know and respect most are the quiet ones with two or more rows of ribbons, who do everything they can for the soldier. 

I have respect for anyone who does everything they have for the soldier.  Just because you have two, three or more rows of ribbon doesn't mean you look out for the soldiers.

It's a shame I had to state the obvious, however as pointed out in another thread we sometimes do ourselves a disservice by remaining silent in the face of relentless fire (whether it be slander or abuse, but that's a topic for another thread ...).

As I mentioned if you feel slagged, see my first comment.

For KevinB - Ack

Cheers,