Pipelines, energy and natural resources

[suffolkowner]

You're continently glossing over the latitudes of those countries compared to one of our most southern cities, Toronto. Solar makes a heck of a lot more sense at the equator or even subtropical zones than it does in Toronto which averages about 3 hours of sunlight in the winter months.

They use what they have and we're forcing solutions into geography that doesn't work while locking abundant, cheap, natural gas behind ideology.

this is partially true but Toronto gets 8hrs and 55 minutes of sunlight on dec 21

 

[Good2Golf]

Just hoping our power prices don't get so uncompetitive that industry gets wiped out.

Compare to whom?

 

[ytz]

this is partially true but Toronto gets 8hrs and 55 minutes of sunlight on dec 21

And even that is irrelevant. Let's say a kW of panels magically became $2k to put on the roof? Pretty much every second home would have them. Price is all that matters.

 

[suffolkowner]

And even that is irrelevant. Let's say a kW of panels magically became $2k to put on the roof? Pretty much every second home would have them. Price is all that matters.

Rooftop solar three times cheaper to install in Australia than US, Canada

A new study has found the cost of installing rooftop solar is dramatically lower in Australia than the US and Canada – even in the most expensive Australian state for installation.

reneweconomy.com.au

its less than a $1/W in Australia

 

[ytz]

Compare to whom?

Depends on the industry.

Rooftop solar three times cheaper to install in Australia than US, Canada

A new study has found the cost of installing rooftop solar is dramatically lower in Australia than the US and Canada – even in the most expensive Australian state for installation.

reneweconomy.com.au

its less than a $1/W in Australia

Yep. They reduced installation costs substantially. That's the barrier. Not even panel costs.

I find the politics of this interesting in Australia. They've been happy to take Chinese solar panels and EVs to keep letting them ship coal and LNG to China. Kinda like how Danielle Smith was fine letting in Chinese EVs cause Alberta doesn't have an auto sector to protect.

 

[Kirkhill]

It wasn't all clean economics. You forget the corruption then too.

General Motors streetcar conspiracy - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Remember when doctors were paid to tell people that cigarettes were not harmful.

Mate, corruption is a given. Everybody considers self-interest.
Utimately that is my problem with every system. Every decision chain ends in a self-interested human that isn't me.

In any event. Like I keep saying, our domestic politics is largely irrelevant. Nobody in Africa or Pakistan is basing their decision on solar PV or EVs based on what Carney or Poilievre do. They do it based on economics.

Agreed, and as it should be.

Heck, even the Saudis are getting in on the game. Using their solar advantage to build cheap data centres. They'll happily use cheap Chinese solar. Despite all that cheap oil. Funny what happens when ideology goes out the window and there's money to be made. They can turn mostly useless desert to service dollars with data centres, while still exporting oil.

The Saudis will buy cheap joules if they can sell expensive ones.
If the Chinese are willing to subsidize the Saudis with cheap slave labour the Saudis aren't going to fret the details.
Likewise for the Africans and Pakistanis.
The Chinese get their pound of flesh one way or another.

 

[ytz]

The Saudis will buy cheap joules if they can sell expensive ones.

Except that their oil sales aren't tied to their solar ambitions. It's a basic business proposition. Use the cheap power and turn it into cheap flops and bytes that they can sell. Quebec could do that with hydro. I hope Nova Scotia does that with offshore wind.

If the Chinese are willing to subsidize the Saudis with cheap slave labour the Saudis aren't going to fret the details.

They are no more subsidising the export of solar PV anymore than they are subsidizing the sale of the smartphone or laptop you typed this on. I'm going to guess that buying cruelty free artisan isn't on your list when buying electronics or clothing.

 

[Kirkhill]

Except that their oil sales aren't tied to their solar ambitions. It's a basic business proposition. Use the cheap power and turn it into cheap flops and bytes that they can sell. Quebec could do that with hydro. I hope Nova Scotia does that with offshore wind.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/nova-scotia-natural-gas-program-dalhousie-university-onshore-9.70255

Onshore natural gas

Nova Scotia has significant onshore natural gas reserves that can help create jobs, attract investment, enhance our energy security and reliability, and support the transition to clean energy.

novascotia.ca

Sable Offshore Energy Project

Status: Decommissioned and Abandoned

cnsoer.ca

They are no more subsidising the export of solar PV anymore than they are subsidizing the sale of the smartphone or laptop you typed this on. I'm going to guess that buying cruelty free artisan isn't on your list when buying electronics or clothing.

I have principles. When I can afford them. I need a phone. I need t-shirts. It is hard to find either that isn't made in China.

 

[Brad Sallows]

I have principles. When I can afford them. I need a phone. I need t-shirts. It is hard to find either that isn't made in China.

Three or four times through the wash and the t-shirts can't call home anymore.

 

[lenaitch]

i just question stacking multiple SMR's on a site instead of bigger ones. Its an investment in technology sure, it just seems to me that bigger is better when it comes to nuclear

I was under the impression that part of the reason for planting SMRs on an existing nuclear plot was a 'proof of concept' role. There's not a lot of real world experience with SMRs, and part of their alleged attraction is repeatability and scalability (up or down). At the OPG site east of Toronto, the engineering SMEs are already there.

 

[suffolkowner]

I was under the impression that part of the reason for planting SMRs on an existing nuclear plot was a 'proof of concept' role. There's not a lot of real world experience with SMRs, and part of their alleged attraction is repeatability and scalability (up or down). At the OPG site east of Toronto, the engineering SMEs are already there.

i think youre 100% right on that. I question the concept for Ontario though. They are not small or modular

 

[lenaitch]

this is partially true but Toronto gets 8hrs and 55 minutes of sunlight on dec 21

It just seems like three.

 

[Good2Golf]

i think youre 100% right on that. I question the concept for Ontario though. They are not small or modular

They are small relative to bigger 750-1500MW single units. In the right place they make eminent sense, particularly when they reduce dependency on vast distribution system to send power from the south up northwards.

They are modular, which by definition in the nuclear power industry means their separate major components are fabricated *separately, then transported to the final site and assembled, quite unlike the in-place fabrication of large NPPs.

 

[ytz]

I have principles. When I can afford them. I need a phone. I need t-shirts. It is hard to find either that isn't made in China.

You can afford more expensive clothes far more easily than developing countries can afford energy.

 

[Kirkhill]

Problem -

https://www.news.com.au/national/victoria/news/not-sustainable-aus-city-running-out-of-water-as-population-growth-data-centres-push-supply-to-the-brink/news-story/6d2d2e176b08b38d75bae3c7f904eafe

Solution -

Norway: World’s first subsea desalination plant set to launch in 2026

In 2026, Norwegian startup Flocean is slated to launch the world's first demonstrator and commercial-scale subsea desalination plant at Mongstad, Norway.

interestingengineering.com

....

Data centres apparently hog water as much as they hog energy.
I am going to guess that that is because a lot of these warm sunny places are using evaporative cooling. In Alberta we can probably bet on indirect air cooling for most of the year. Water is like to be a problem if we are restricted to surface water but much of Alberta sits on an ancient salty sea. We have lots of subterranean water but it is really briny.

Plus side

Lots of dissolved lithium and other minerals.

....

I am a fan of technology and imagination. And nothing being settled.

 

[Kirkhill]

They are small relative to bigger 750-1500MW single units. In the right place they make eminent sense, particularly when they reduce dependency on vast distribution system to send power from the south up northwards.

They are modular, which by definition in the nuclear power industry means their separate major components are fabricated *separately, then transported to the final site and assembled, quite unlike the in-place fabrication of large NPPs.

As you suggest the whole point of the SMRs is that they are Small and Modular.

The ideal starting point is the smallest reactor that can be packaged and shipped.

A gas fired package boilers, shipped and installed as a single piece, can range from 3 to 350 MW. Or the equivalent of one wind-turbine working at 100% efficiency or a whole off shore wind farm of 350 turbines operating at their typical 25 to 30% efficiency.

So SMRs that can compete with package boilers would be an excellent starting point for any remote facility or community.

 

[Kirkhill]

S9G - Virginia class - 210 MWt
S8G - Ohio class - 220 MWt
S6G - Seawolf - 230 MWt
A4W - Nimitz - 550 MWt
A1B - Ford - 700 MWt
30 years or so of life.
Refuel partially every 2 years during maintenance.

Darlington CANDU PWHR
2776 MWt and 878 MWe (net)
31% electrical efficiency
69% high quality waste heat
Comparable to any other steam cycle plant but with years of life from a single refuelling.

Slow Poke 2 - 20 kWt

SMRs aiming for 3 to 30 years of life from a single refuelling.