PM: Announcement on Choppers, UAVs Coming

[The Bread Guy]

Mod squad - pls move/merge if already posted...

Also spotted this tidbit (.pdf permalink) in MERX on UAVs....

Shared in accordance with the "fair dealing" provisions, Section 29, of the Copyright Act.

Ottawa seeking helicopters, drones to extend Afghan mission
CBC.ca, last updated 21 Feb 08, 5:35 AM ET
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The federal government is currently in negotiations to acquire large helicopters and unmanned surveillance drones in an attempt to satisfy two conditions set out in the Manley report for extending the Afghanistan mission, CBC News has learned.

In a rare speech to the Conference of Defence Associations general meeting, Prime Minister Stephen Harper is expected to announce Thursday that his government is trying to secure a deal with at least two American helicopter manufacturers.

The deal is to either lease or buy helicopters that would provide transport for Canadian troops in Kandahar, CBC News has learned.

Harper is also expected to say the government released a tender for the surveillance drones earlier this week.

The announcement follows the Manley report recommendations that the government extend its mission in Afghanistan past the February 2009 deadline, but only if NATO was able to provide an additional 1,000 troops to bolster Canadian forces fighting in the south.

The Manley panel also demanded the government find access to unmanned surveillance drones and large helicopters to ferry Canadian troops around the region.

 

[Panzer Grenadier]

If any sme's could elaborate as to the type of helicopters to be leased/purchased (other than the obvious chinooks).  On the UAV's, could they possibly be predators or reapers? I doubt it but if anyone has any ideas on this they could share, as I am way out of my lanes when it comes to in-depth knowledge of UAVS and helicopters.

 

[Strike]

On the UAV's, could they possibly be predators or reapers? I doubt it but if anyone has any ideas on this they could share, as I am way out of my lanes when it comes to in-depth knowledge of UAVS and helicopters.

Harper is also expected to say the government released a tender for the surveillance drones earlier this week.

 

[OldSolduer]

Surveillance drone = staff officer from NDHQ poking his nose in where in doesn't belong

"I'm from NDHQ and I'm here to hinder...uh I mean help"

 

[Panzer Grenadier]

Thank you Strike.  I should really learn to read and not skim everything.  :

 

[prom]

Hunter RQ-5A/B an option? It falls in on the specified range and endurance figures.

http://www.army-technology.com/projects/hunter/specs.html

 

[Matt_Fisher]

The Manley report recommends that Canada obtain Medium-lift helicopters.  Does this mean an additional helicopter class to what we will be purchasing with the CH-47 Chinook?  Chinooks are on order already, right?  So, are we looking at a purchase or lease of something like the EH-101, Mi-17, AS-332/AS-532 Super Puma/Cougar, etc?
If it's down to 2 US helicopter manufacturers in the medium lift field we're pretty much down to 3 companies:

Sikorsky S-92 (CH-148 Cyclone)
Sikorsky S-92 doesn't look viable for a UOR, as they won't be ready to deliver for a few more years yet. 
What about leasing S-70s/UH-60s from the US?  Seems like that option, while on the lighter end of medium lift capability, would be viable from a delivery timeframe.

Boeing CH-47 Chinook
I thought we already had these on order, but wouldn't be available until 2011?  Again, this seems like it wouldn't work with a UOR purchase for use in Afghanistan.  Any possibility of leasing existing aircraft?  Also, is this a medium or heavy lift helicopter?

Lockheed Martin/Bell Textron/Augusta Westland EH/US-101
We've already got the Augusta Westland CH-149 Cormorant in service, but it seems like there's some bad blood between the Canadian government and August Westland regarding the purchase and cancellation of the original EH-101 contract.  If we were to go with this aircraft, what would the delivery timeframe be?  What about leasing existing aircraft?

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I wonder if we are unable to step into the head of the Chinook line that a basic military version of the cyclone would be purchased without the folding blades/tail that the navy needs? It would need a defensive suite and comm’s Hot and high engines and dust filters.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Sikorsky S-92 (CH-148 Cyclone)
Sikorsky S-92 doesn't look viable for a UOR, as they won't be ready to deliver for a few more years yet. 
What about leasing S-70s/UH-60s from the US?  Seems like that option, while on the lighter end of medium lift capability, would be viable from a delivery timeframe.

And, based on some "internet magic", it appears the company's not holding out too much hope, either.  When you click to Sikorsky's web page to the news release/backgrounder describing the CH-148 project, here's what you get instead.  Thanks to the magic of Archive.org, here's what USED TO BE there!  The picture that's SUPPOSED to stay in place on the page I've posted below.

Boeing CH-47 Chinook
I thought we already had these on order, but wouldn't be available until 2011?  Again, this seems like it wouldn't work with a UOR purchase for use in Afghanistan.  Any possibility of leasing existing aircraft?  Also, is this a medium or heavy lift helicopter?

As for the Boeing package, according to CP:  "....In June 2006, the Conservative government announced it was going to buy 16 heavy-lift helicopters and within weeks said Boeing was the company best-suited to meet the requirements.  The program has since stalled, a formal contract has yet to be signed and delivery of the first aircraft isn't expected until 2011. Part of the reason is that Canada's air force has asked for design changes to make the helicopter more versatile in order to carry out other types missions beyond the desert battlefields of Kandahar...."

According to the latest Boeing news release (and I stand to be corrected with more recent stuff), they sound confident, but the helicopter portion ain't a done deal with them yet:  "....As the Canadian Forces continue to modernize their defense systems, through efforts such as the Medium-Heavy Lift Helicopter program, Boeing anticipates that it will sign additional contracts to further expand its supplier base in the region...."

Latest word on the lease & "jump the queue" arrangements I've seen is this:  "....  Programs to acquire 16 Boeing CH-47 Chinook helicopters and top-of-the-line Predator drones have been sidetracked by red tape and political considerations.  And Canadian defence officials have failed to persuade Germany to loan or lease a handful of CH-53 Sikorsky helicopters, 20 of which have already been outfitted for use in Afghanistan.  Defence sources said the request was turned down because the German military felt it would compromise their own operational readiness in the northern part of the war-torn country.  Germany did offer Canada three unmodified CH-53s and suggested the Americans might help ready them for duty in the hot, dusty, high-altitude climate, said the sources who have knowledge of the talks .... Defence officials are also asking the Americans to swap places in Boeing's production line, in order to give Canada access to its Chinook helicopters earlier than the current 2011 deadline....."

 

[Matt_Fisher]

As things get bogged down in PWGSC/Industry Canada/Industry Lobbyist red tape in Ottawa for the acquisition of the CH-47, and with H-92/CH-148 being so far behind schedule, what are our realistic options to get medium lift in theatre in an expedient manner?

To me, either leasing Mi-17s or S-70/UH-60s might make sense.

Leasing Mi-17s is feasible from an availabilty standpoint, but given the Air Force's reluctance/resistance to use non-Western aircraft, I doubt this option would be pursued.

Given that Sikorsky is going to be incurring some significant financial penalties for late delivery of the CH-148, if I was them, I'd be trying to arrange some sort of sweetheart deal whereby the CFs are able to lease a few (6-8) UH-60s, whereby a good portion of the cost of the lease  (including spare parts and maintenance) is covered by Sikorsky.  That would at least provide the CFs with a capable medevac (6 stretchers), and lower end medium cargo lift (8-9000lbs slung load) aircraft capable of performing in Afghan combat conditions.

 

[Donut]

....  That would at least provide the CFs with a capable medevac (6 stretchers), and lower end medium cargo lift (8-9000lbs slung load) aircraft capable of performing in Afghan combat conditions.

Matt, not to get this off topic, but the "turntable" or whatever it's called has been removed from just about all the blackhawks, so they can only carry two or three at a time (which is 2 or 3 more then the CF can carry in A'Stan right now  :)

 

[Matt_Fisher]

Matt, not to get this off topic, but the "turntable" or whatever it's called has been removed from just about all the blackhawks, so they can only carry two or three at a time (which is 2 or 3 more then the CF can carry in A'Stan right now  :)

Thanks for the update.  2 or 3 is still better than what we've got now as organic airlift medevac (0).

 

[The Bread Guy]

Down another road, has anyone seen anything more recent re:  NATO's proposed scheme to lease their own choppers?  Could this even potentially help Canadians?

Latest MSM I've seen is from late October 2007:  "NATO will lease about 20 transport helicopters to fill a gap in the Afghanistan mission and relieve an overstretched U.S. unit, alliance officials said.  Negotiations over a leasing contract are in the final stages, three NATO officials told reporters under condition of anonymity today. The non-combat helicopters would be used to shuttle equipment and ammunition around the Afghan battlefields ....."

According to Brigadier General Pavel Macko, Director, Combined Joint Operations Centre (HQ ISAF), speaking in early October 2007, it was doable, but he didn't have the details re:  where the leasing was at:  "....So yes, there is a request and I think the staff in NATO Headquarters are working on the solution; whether we will have them or not I cannot say at the moment, but I wouldn't see any problem and it would be more than welcome to have helicopters to do some basic logistics support to our troops and we can keep our helicopters for further use in our operations as we need...."