PMV and Travel Limits While on TD

[charlesm]

My recommendation would be that a Class "B" start on a Friday if the report date is a Monday, normally it would be Saturday would be the travel day anyway. Then you have the ability to travel 1500 km when you include the weekend, before you have to travel on your own dime as a reservist. Weekends do count for leave. If you have to travel more than 1500km IE (Victoria to Borden) you travel on your own time before the Friday travel day.

 

[bridges]

My recommendation would be that a Class "B" start on a Friday if the report date is a Monday, normally it would be Saturday would be the travel day anyway. Then you have the ability to travel 1500 km when you include the weekend, before you have to travel on your own dime as a reservist. Weekends do count for leave. If you have to travel more than 1500km IE (Victoria to Borden) you travel on your own time before the Friday travel day.

That depends on a unit being willing to pay for the extra days, which most typically are not.  It would be ideal for the mbr though.

Also - if the mbr gets in a car crash on one of the days that's "their own time", it'd be good to know whether that's considered "duty travel" or not. 

Sorry recceguy, I tried.  We have most of the answer.  Somebody, somewhere, knows the rest. 

 

[DAA]

There are two issues at play here.  One is the Class of Service (ie; A or B) and the other is the distance being travelled.  Every 500Km requires one day of paid leave.  Class A are not entitled to leave, therefore, they cannot utilize PMV if the distance exceeds 500 km, hence, even with a cost comparison in place, a person on Class A gets NOTHING.... (DCBA already provided clarification/direction on this one...).  The same holds true for Class B service.  The duration of which would need to be sufficient enough to "earn" leave which you would end up having to use if you travel PMV.  No leave = No PMV travel.  There is no need for a waiver of any kind, as the member is not being paid and are travelling on their own time at their own expense.

Oh and the tasking authority cannot modify the period of service to include additional travel time.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Assuming CFSEME won't extent Cl B dates to cover travel, Home Unit won't pay Cl A days, and LWOP isn't an option, the OP said if POMV approved, he would take 2 days to travel up, and 2 days to visit.  In theory, he could provide the "place he is visiting" as his travel start point to Borden.  Mbr would have to pay their own way to XXX, Ontario (place he was planning on visiting, provided it was within 500Km of Borden).  This is when the question of "how badly do I REALLY want my car on this Cl B" should be asked.

- mbr would state "I will be on XXX, Ontario on *date before CL B begins*.  It would have to be within 500kmm of Borden.
- on RFD/Cl B start date, mbr would then proceed to Borden.
- mbr would only receive kilometric rate for travel on CL B start date, TDA, and meals over actual travel time (not to exceed cost comparison $ amount).

The RTU trip, mbr should have Ann Lve days x 2 for every 30 days of CL B.  Rte Letter could be extended to cover Ann Lve not used*, which would cover off the 3 days travel @ 500km/day rule from Borden - Moncton. 

Its been awhile since I've had to deal with this kind of situation, but basically that is what happened when I ran into this once with a mbr proceeding on CL B to Borden and wanted their POMV (3 month callout). 

*assuming employing unit doesn't have a "Cl B ann leave shall be used before contract end date" policy.  IIRC, most units were getting away from the contract end date extension stuff and requiring all Ann Lve to be used before contract ended.  In this case, mbr would have to go LWOP on the rtn trip or "visit" XXX, Ontario again and pay for return trip out of pocket.

Aside from a few minor details on what meals mbr could claim IAW Celticgirl, this situation has worked before.  Mbr, before report date, is travelling as if they were a civie.  Memo submitted to OR indicating they will be in "location 500km from Borden" on day before RFD date.  OR attaches memo to travel claim.  No reimbursement before Cl B start date.

That is IF the Gaining unit will not authorize amended dates on Rte ltr to allow travel up, LWOP isn't auth, etc. 

The CF can't tell the mbr, who is not on Cl B yet and not on Cl A pay sheets "you aren't allowed to go to Ont before your RFD date, you have to sit home".  :

This has been done before. 

 

[dapaterson]

And those admin games are all fine until the mbr gets injured while driving on the day or two before he's "officially" travelling.  Duty status means a lot when injured, particularly for a member of the Primary Reserve.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Yes.  This was done as it was the only option for the mbr to take PMV to Ont.  Its on mbr's on dime and risk, as it is not duty travel until the day their Cl B starts.  Choice for the mbr to make, as I said, how badly they want their rig with them.

As for coverage, that would fall under their insurance plan.

*editted to add, I don't say I agree with this, but it appears at this is what the CFTDI will force a Res mbr proceeding on Cl B more than 500Km home unit to decide on, take the risk and expense on.

Also, LWOP is not an option IAW Chap 8 of the CF Leave Policy Manual.  My bad.  Should know better to check before typing.

 

[twilrecce]

So that is why they said no POMV past 500 KM thanks for the reasoning. It makes sense now really. I may do the non class B travel yet as I hadn't thought of travelling in that manner

 

[CountDC]

*assuming employing unit doesn't have a "Cl B ann leave shall be used before contract end date" policy.  IIRC, most units were getting away from the contract end date extension stuff and requiring all Ann Lve to be used before contract ended.  In this case, mbr would have to go LWOP on the rtn trip or "visit" XXX, Ontario again and pay for return trip out of pocket.

Good post - covers it nicely.  Just one point for the quoted part that was missed.  There is another option with no need to extend the callout to cover leave - they can simply approve his leave to correspond to the end date of his callout and send him packing on the applicable date - ie callout ends on Fri, he has 4 days leave so his last day there would be the Monday.

Do it as a notice of intent to travel pmc on your own time and risk and request DND reimburse the cost equivalant of a Hypothetical trip (cost comparison).  The claim can then be actioned by the clerks as if you had actually travelled via the Hypothetical trip.  Have done lots of claims that way and is really a simple method.  In fact the clerk can do the cost comparison and the claim at the same time (held pending your return and any adjustments that may be needed).  Never had a problem with it as there was no additional cost or risk.

 

[DAA]

Do it as a notice of intent to travel pmc on your own time and risk and request DND reimburse the cost equivalant of a Hypothetical trip (cost comparison).  The claim can then be actioned by the clerks as if you had actually travelled via the Hypothetical trip.  Have done lots of claims that way and is really a simple method.  In fact the clerk can do the cost comparison and the claim at the same time (held pending your return and any adjustments that may be needed).  Never had a problem with it as there was no additional cost or risk.

I hope you are doing this based on the member being on "authorized leave" and "being paid" while travelling?  DCBA has been quite clear on this issue...if the member takes POMV and does not have sufficient leave to cover the period, they get NOTHING!!!  Even with a cost comparison.  They MUST travel via the preferred MOT.  If you want to see the email from DCBA. PM me and I will send it to you on DWAN.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Please I have to ask...what is the reasoning behind this.  Seriously.  All this stupid policy does is make life unnnecessarily crappy for a Reservist on Cl B away from home, who now will have no way to travel.  If it was going to cost $500 to fly the person, why not let them have $ to take their damn car like a normal adult?  :

DCBA has been wrong before, so is this clear in the relevant CBI/applic policy?

 

[DAA]

Please I have to ask...what is the reasoning behind this.  Seriously.  All this stupid policy does is make life unnnecessarily crappy for a Reservist on Cl B away from home, who now will have no way to travel.  If it was going to cost $500 to fly the person, why not let them have $ to take their damn car like a normal adult?  :

DCBA has been wrong before, so is this clear in the relevant CBI/applic policy?

This has little to do with policy and oh so much more to do with "LIABILITY", which is what people don't seem to understand.  If you are being "reimbursed" for travel expenses, then you are considered to be "on duty" and when you are "ON DUTY", you have the full realm of medical and pension benefits backed by the Crown.  The policy is quite clear with regards to reimbursement of benefits as to when they apply.  But when you decide to step into a grey area thinking you are doing the member a favour (ie; back dating claims, cost comparisons, after the fact scenario's etc) you do so at the expense (ie; liability) of the member by reimbursing them.  If you are a Reserve F member injured "on duty" and can't work for the CF any more, think about what benefits (ie pension or medical) you would receive as opposed to being injured "off duty".  So if you take it upon yourself to reimburse him/her for their travel and god forbid something happens, then now DND is considered liable and you have some explaining to do...

Hence, the rationale as to why DCBA issued "guidance" on POMV Travel by Class A, B and C Reserve Force members.  Imagine telling Cpl Smith, "Don't worry, you can take your car, I will do a cost comparison before or after the fact and reimburse you what it would have cost had we flown you to your tasking".  Then Cpl Smith is involved in a car accident on the way to or from the tasking and his Class A or B Route Letter has not yet come into effect yet or he wasn't on or doesn't have approved leave.


PS - and if anyone isn't already aware, POMV Waivers MUST be signed by a Commissioned Officer......... <---------ooppsss, there is that "liability" issue again!

 

[George Wallace]

Hence, the rationale as to why DCBA issued "guidance" on POMV Travel by Class A, B and C Reserve Force members.  Imagine telling Cpl Smith, "Don't worry, you can take your car, I will do a cost comparison before or after the fact and reimburse you what it would have cost had we flown you to your tasking".  Then Cpl Smith is involved in a car accident on the way to or from the tasking and his Class A or B Route Letter has not yet come into effect yet or he wasn't on or doesn't have approved leave.

So accidents only happen when the member is driving their own POMV; never a Bus crash, Train derailment, Ferry sinking, or aircraft falling uncontrolled from the skies?  >

No one should be travelling by any means as a Reservist without their Claim and a Route Letter. 

People who have no knowledge and think only in "Black and White", often in a very faulty manner, piss me off.

 

[DAA]

No one should be travelling by any means as a Reservist without their Claim and a Route Letter. 

My thoughts exactly.....

 

[Nfld Sapper]

No one should be travelling by any means as a Reservist without their Claim and a Route Letter. 

Yet I know of at least one unit that does.....

 

[CountDC]

I hope you are doing this based on the member being on "authorized leave" and "being paid" while travelling?  DCBA has been quite clear on this issue...if the member takes POMV and does not have sufficient leave to cover the period, they get NOTHING!!!  Even with a cost comparison.  They MUST travel via the preferred MOT.  If you want to see the email from DCBA. PM me and I will send it to you on DWAN.

yes it was always auth time and I have done it all the way back to the early 90's.  Nice to see DCBA has finally caught up with me.


Scarey that units are still sending members without their paperwork and that the members are going without it.  I always stressed to the members to make sure they picked up their docs or they wouldn't get paid.  Never had a problem.  The problem was getting the claims out of them when they returned.  Had to chase them down and tell them it was worth money before they brought them in.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I don't understand the "if you elect to go PMV on your own dime, you won't get reimbursed anything".  For ease, let's use the OP situation.

- mbr is going on Cl B in Borden, resides in Moncton NB.
- Cl B won't be extended to cover travel to/from.  As a Reservist, mbr has no Ann Lve to take, can't go LWOP, unit not going to pay for Cl A to travel.
- mbr could travel to within 500kms of Borden prior to Report Date, on his own time and dime, a personal choice and not covered by CF in any way for non duty days.

Why, on the report date, is the mbr not auth to travel up to but not to exceed 500kms IAW policy, and have the travel covered under the Cost Comparison model?  If the member didn't travel on own dime and time, the CF would be paying for travel to airport, airport to place of duty, airline cost, plus meals during actual travel time, along with 1 x day TD allowance (IIRC).

As for the changes to years gone by, I can see why that was stopped.  Mbrs would be given auth to travel POMV half way across the country, getting paid and on TD the whole time, for CL B callouts. 

I don't understand why if you take your PMV now, on your own dime and time, why the last day you cannot be reimbursed reasonable expenses, with the mbr abiding by the "not to exceed 500km's/day" rule. 


*edit* this doesn't affect me personally, so I have no iron in the fire WRT to this.  I just think its alittle overboard/restrictive.  Having been on Cl B during summers away from home province, I certainly know how much a car can make a difference in your QOL.

 

[bridges]

Why, on the report date, is the mbr not auth to travel up to but not to exceed 500kms IAW policy, and have the travel covered under the Cost Comparison model?  If the member didn't travel on own dime and time, the CF would be paying for travel to airport, airport to place of duty, airline cost, plus meals during actual travel time, along with 1 x day TD allowance (IIRC).

My thoughts exactly.  If the member happens to be in, say, Toronto the day before his Class B starts in Borden, surely the CF can't compel him to go home to NB and then fly to Toronto - ?

 

[Eye In The Sky]

No, they just don't reimburse ANYTHING IAW earlier posts, unless I read them wrong.

 

[DAA]

I don't understand why if you take your PMV now, on your own dime and time, why the last day you cannot be reimbursed reasonable expenses, with the mbr abiding by the "not to exceed 500km's/day" rule. 

First of all you need to determine what the "authorized" mode of travel is going to be.  If they don't have leave to burn inorder to use POMV, then POMV can't be an authorized MOT.  If you try and use a cost comparison under the scenario you mention above, you are by default placing them "on duty" for the entire period of travel time and not just the first and last day.

DCBA has a great Power Point training presentation that they use when they visits Bases and all the information on this subject is covered in it.  I totally understand the frustration on this but the ramifications go way beyond a few bucks in someone's pocket.  If you don't have and want a copy of the trg presentation, PM me and I can send it to you on DWAN.

 

[Celticgirl]

I don't understand why if you take your PMV now, on your own dime and time, why the last day you cannot be reimbursed reasonable expenses, with the mbr abiding by the "not to exceed 500km's/day" rule. 

It's been less than a year since I was working in a Res OR and I'm very surprised to find out that this is not authorized anymore for Reservists.  This was standard procedure when I was doing the Route Letters and TD Claims for our PRes mbrs (and for my own courses in Borden) - the first day of the B contract was the day before your course and also your travel day...after course you had paid leave (1 day for every 15 days on course) and a travel day.  If you opted to drive vice fly, you signed a PMV waiver (same as the Reg F mbrs do) and as you were on Class A prior to the day before course commencement, you could leave whenever you chose so long as you were still following that 500 km/day rule to which you agreed. 

The only difference I find now with the Reg F is the whole taking of paid leave prior to starting your course if you are driving (or want to fly up early and take time to visit family or whatever).    Not giving Reservists the option to take POMV unless they do so 100% at their own expense seems rather unfair, IMO.  A Cost Comparison to a return flight from say Halifax to Borden is usually around $800, which goes a long way towards gas, meals, and incidentals, and even an overnight (or two) each way in a hotel.  Even giving the mbr meals and incidentals for a day of travel would be 'something'.  :