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Perhaps the current government is "slow walking" development? < dunno emoji
Police Folk Allegedly Behaving Badly
- Thread starter Bruce Monkhouse
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Perhaps the current government is "slow walking" development? < dunno emoji
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Depends on the type of development...
Oh good. Screw that guy.
How do you deal with the people who are cleared? Saying you can't act as an officer until we sort this out is one thing, saying you can't pay your bills until this finally gets through the court system is another thing entirely. Maybe a hearing or something needs to be held where one considers the totality of the situation like crime alleged, officer history, strength of the evidence etc. It could be a committee filled with senior pers, union pers and maybe civilian representatives. At least that would be easier to defend than a unilateral decision from management.
I totally understand the issue. Cops have so much power they need to be held to the highest standard and any appearance of leniency erodes the public trust. It is a very fine line to walk. If you go to far to one side you have cops quitting en masse like you are seeing in the US right now but if you go too far the other side, you end up with a public that fears rather than trust cops. My only solution in cases like this one is transparency. If you can show you dotted every i and crossed every t, both the public and the officers can feel confident the process was fair.
OldSolduer
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He’s gonna be a real popular guy in the pen.
I foresee PC in his future.
It will be exceptionally rare for a police officer to be charged with serious criminal offences (let’s say sexual assault and forcible confinement), not related to their duties (which rules out potentially lawful but contentious use of force), where they are not only criminally acquitted but also fully cleared in an internal conduct probe. If that were to happen, reinstatement with back pay could easily be accomplished, and compensatory damages awarded, probably in a fast settlement. Remember that a criminal conviction is not required to terminate a police officer’s employment for serious misconduct.
This is pretty straightforward to build a formula for. Presumptive auspension without pay when:
- A police officer is criminally charged with serious criminality that calls into question their suitability to do the job (definition of this to be refined, but most serious crimes against persons; breach of trust/corruption; trafficking controlled substances);
- The alleged criminality is not directly tied to their duties (so you don’t have a suspension without pay for someone charged in a use of force incident that looks bad but ends up with them being cleared);
- The chief of police believes on reasonable grounds that it is in the best interest of the public’s confidence in the police service that the accused be suspended without pay.
There could be an expedited review process out in place to challenge such a suspension’s reasonableness, and other procedural protections out in place, but I think this would be very reasonable. The threshold of serious criminal charges all but guarantees you’ll filter out pretty much any misconduct cases that are dubious, given that conduct matters have a balance of probabilities threshold that’s much lower than the criminal standard of beyond a reasonable doubt.
This could be applied to many of the cases we’ve seen and discussed throughout this thread, and ai think would be pretty much batting a thousand.
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In Ontario, that's what the regulations under that Act are meant to deal with, and which we still await. Discussions involving the government, 'management' (Ontario Association of Chiefs of Police) and 'labour' (Ontario Police Association et al) have been ongoing for some time and I understand they are very close. I can only imagine that back pay or pay banking will be addressed.
With representative from all sides on board, successful application of unpaid suspensions has greater likelihood of legal success. Speeding up the process would certainly help. Speeding up the criminal justice system is a huge issue, but there needs to be streamlining in the discipline process as well, and I'm not sure how much progress they could make on the that front. It's a quasi-judicial process now; disclosure, motions, everybody lawyers up, etc. I can only imagine the regulations, whenever they emerge, will include some kind of appeal or review hearing process to a 'unpaid application'.
There are (very) roughly 120 cops under suspension in Ontario. Like Brihard, I don't think those 'eligible' for unpaid suspension would be be very large. Those cases; however, are the ones that catch the media and public's attention.
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City of Baltimore police body cam, released today, showing an individual transported face down on stretcher to hospital by ambulance.
You know how it ends. $
Haggis
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And, he's back in the news again. This time charged with forgery.
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want to back that observation up with some cases. courts are extremely lenient these days....cop or not.
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A relatively recent example:
Man charged with murdering officer allegedly went on violent crime spree while out on bail
It appears no one was actively searching for Randall McKenzie before he allegedly killed an OPP officer — despite facing new charges while on bail, Susan Clairmont writes.
www.thespec.com
daftandbarmy
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A relatively recent example:
Man charged with murdering officer allegedly went on violent crime spree while out on bail
It appears no one was actively searching for Randall McKenzie before he allegedly killed an OPP officer — despite facing new charges while on bail, Susan Clairmont writes.
OTOH, if you're crazy enough to destroy the neighbour's shrubbery
Over the six months in 2021, Khatkar trespassed on the plaintiff’s property and cut off up to 3.3 metres of 75 4.5-metre-tall mature cedar trees on the property line between the two properties, ultimately causing the cedar hedge to be destroyed, Francis wrote.
The hedge, which was clearly on plaintiff’s side of a chain-link fence, which also belonged to the plaintiff, provided a “complete privacy screen,” which the two people who lived there valued, she wrote.
Surrey woman destroys neighbour's cedar hedge, court hits her for $150K in damages
Dozens of cedar shrubs were cut down.
www.timescolonist.com
OldSolduer
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That is when you call Roger the Shrubber.OTOH, if you're crazy enough to destroy the neighbour's shrubbery
daftandbarmy
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The honourable thing to do, of course...
Colour me perhaps jaded, and most likely naive...A relatively recent example:
Man charged with murdering officer allegedly went on violent crime spree while out on bail
It appears no one was actively searching for Randall McKenzie before he allegedly killed an OPP officer — despite facing new charges while on bail, Susan Clairmont writes.
But it pisses me off when people oppose funding for law enforcement because they think the money could be better spent on 'mental illness & addiction.'
What I never hear is HOW??
How do we spend 'more money on mental illness'? Is mental illness a tangible person or thing we can spend money on?
What do they want that money to do exactly...hire more social workers to deal with mentally ill individuals more often in the hopes they don't go murder their bloody neighbours? Do they want it spent on supervised group homes for some folks? The building of dedicated mental health hospitals again?
How do we spend more money on mental illness? And what do we spend it on?
Same goes with addiction...
Currently, my understanding is that if you are addicted and have decided it's something you no longer want in your life, you go to a doctor who then refers you to the appropriate treatment plan (also known as Rehab)
Rehab facilities tend to be isolated and away from the common sources of drugs and alcohol, where individuals voluntarily enter a program designed to help them kick their addiction to a specific substance. (I'm unsure if there tends to be a wait list or not)
^ I could be entirely wrong about the above btw, I honestly have very little real experience with addictions
But my question remains...HOW is spending money on addictions' going to help anybody? How do we even do it?
Are they advocating that money is used to hire more staff? Open more rehabilitation centres? Fund certain medications? Enhance the training of already hired staff?
What the actual f**k is 'spend money on mental illness and addictions' supposed to look like...??
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I DO KNOW that if your a criminal who preys on people, steals their cars, assaults them, etc etc the POLICE show up pretty damn quickly if the situation is requiring officers to be there 'right now' and they will make that criminal disappear (aka go away)
Now the COURTS on the other hand are all f**ked up...releasing an offender just because he happens to be native? Sorry, but fuck off with the reverse racism - especially when the individual is clearly a shitbag who poses a serious risk to society. If his own mother is saying "Screw it, he's yours..." that's a pretty solid sign the dude should have been locked up when the system had him. That, and his lifetime of being a scumbag...
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We run a legal system in this country that is brutally expensive to run. I don't think the general public as a clue as to how expensive our legal system is to run...
Crown prosecutors & their assistants. Judges & their assistants. Clerks of the court. Courthouse admin staff. Armed security (usually a form of law enforcement) in the courthouses. The maintenance of the buildings themselves. The utility bills. The landscaping or public areas...
Then we have the correctional centres & the officers & staff that work there. Probation officers. Feeding the inmates. The utility bills. The maintenance of those facilities. The technology that goes into virtual courtroom attendance. Etc etc etc
Then we get to the actual police services, their members, vehicles, gas for vehicles, uniforms and equipment, specialized computers, specialized kit used in investigations, blah blah blah blah blah...
Our system is EXPENSIVE to run. Very expensive. And for the amount of taxpayer money that goes into it, it should be able to make basic decisions & deterninations that protect the public from certain ppl that clearly pose a threat...
Cut off your ankle monitor? Cool bro, hang out in a jail cell until your court matter gets sorted out, since you just told the system you can't be trusted to wear it. It doesn't matter if your native, or white, or black.
How frigging hard is that??
Mods, I apologize in advance, I know I dropped a few curse words in the above...
Open more facilities to assist people with mental illness, such as group homes, treatment centers. Here in Red Deer we have Mitchener Center which assists people living with disabilities issues functioning. It is has been scaling down for years and plans to shut it are on the books.
It might take months or years to get placement in a treatment facility. Mean while your falling further and further.
Alberta has put money and effort into increasing access to newly built Treatment Facilities, Provincial Jails have and are getting Addiction treatment programs. We have the first one in the province in Red Deer.
It is providing the service to help those get sober, then become product members of society. Instead of committing crimes to support their addictions.
The court system needs a overhaul. Unfortunately Trudeau and his members changed the bail process and program. They believe less offenders locked away waiting for trial in fact believe no one should be remanded.
I didn't realise you were in Red Deer. Howdy neighbour
(Edmonton here)- Unless there is a bigger & newer centre that is scheduled to be opened around the time Mitchener Centre is slated to close, closing it is a horrible idea. Keeping a place like that open actually is really important to the community at large, and it's annual operating costs are literally a rounding error in government coffers.
Closing it during a time when the city is growing quickly & our provincial population is growing quickly seems incredibly short sighted...
- If there is indeed a waiting period of months or years for someone who wants to get clean to get into rehab, then yikes! Absolutely fund more programs run out of more locations so those who are looking to get clean, can.
I feel like that's a good investment as a society, and really falls under healthcare spending anyways (in my wee little brain, anyway)
Agreed that offering programs that help people get clean, and those programs running at full tilt, does help prevent some crime from evening happening (mostly property crime, theft of items that can be resold for drug money, robberies, etc etc)
All of your points are good ones. If people with mental health issues are seeking help, but the help just doesn't exist - or exist in enough capacity that it can be easily accessed by the folks who need it - then I can see some validity to the proposition of using public funds for these things rather than more police.
But I need to stress the some part.
As we all know, real life doesn't always look like the academic discussions we have here or professionals have with each other. There is an ugly side to addictions and mental health challenges, and that ugly side can be extremely violent, unpredictable, and dangerous in so many ways.
We need police. Funding the programs and tools that may lead to a reduction in some crime is obviously good and needed, but I wouldn't argue that those funds should come at the expense of funding more police...I don't believe it's a 'one or the other' question/equation.
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Staying on topic in regards to the article about the murder of the OPP officer, I don't believe more social services funded would have prevented this guy from doing any of the things he did.
I guess that was the point of my rant above. More funding for those things would not have, in my opinion, changed this scenario...
He didn't steal cars, stab people, sexually assault people, and murder an officer who came to help push them out of a ditch because of an addiction or a mental health problem. He did those things because he's a piece of s**t who was smart enough to know where to buy an illegal gun & smart enough to make the money to buy it.
The courts let everybody down here... And why?? Because our woke moron of a dictator wants a slap on the wrist for most criminals, and therefore has a soft policy on bail? Because the SCC wants judges or JP's to 'make an extra consideration' before deciding whether or not to remand someone because they happen to be native?
(Personally I think the courts should view everybody as grey when deciding whether or not their acts deem them eligible for bail, especially for violent offenses. If their cultural background is somehow a factor, their lawyer can bring it up come trial time...but this guy not being remanded just because he was native is horses**t, in my opinion)
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Been reading about "Mental Health & Addictions Response Teams (MHART) in Ontario emergency services.
Different municipalities call them by different acronyms.
There has been an increase in them since the $27 million payout to the family of George Floyd by City of Minneapolis taxpayers.
Niagara Mental Health & Addictions Response Team (MHART) — Ottawa Community Partnerships For Health Equity
Niagara Mental Health & Addictions Response Team (MHART) Learn about the Niagara Mental Health & Addictions Response Team (MHART) . Since 2018, Niagara has implemented a mobile, integrated health team to respond to calls about mental health and substance use issues. The team respo
www.ocphe.ca
Sylvia Jones unveiled Mental Health and Addictions Response Team (MHART) and vehicle
The MHART team was created in partnership between Essex-Windsor EMS and Hôtel-Dieu Grace Healthcare. Essex-Windsor EMS Chief Bruce Krauter said the team consists of two full-time paramedics and a social worker from Hôtel-Dieu Grace.
"Treat and Release", at the scene makes sense. Rather than paramedics transporting EDPs to an already over crowded ER.
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