Police Folk Allegedly Behaving Badly

[mariomike]

Given court rulings on evidence admissibility, and the advancements in forensics, leaving a body 'in situ' is increasingly common in a criminal investigation.

Nothing new about death.

But, who decides if a body is dead?

As a PCP, this was our Deceased Patient Standard

Obviously Dead
means death has occurred if gross signs of death are obvious, including by reason of:

1. decapitation, transection, visible decomposition, putrefaction; or
2. absence of vital signs and:
a. a grossly charred body;
b. an open head or torso wound with gross outpouring of cranial or visceral contents;
c. gross rigor mortis (i.e. limbs and/or body stiff, posturing of limbs or body); or
d. dependent lividity (i.e. fixed, non-blanching purple or black discolouration of skin in dependent area of body).

Even then, leaving a body in a public place ( during my time ) was very rare.

From what I have seen on the TV news, and as mentioned here, leaving a body 'in situ' seems to have become increasingly common.

To transport, or not transport, a patient(s) who met the Deceased Patient Standard from a public place would ultimately be at the discretion of the police and coroner.

Those who did not meet that Standard ( Vital Signs Absent ), were typically treated as Load and Go.

Location would also be a factor. Was the body in a rural / remote area, or in a more public place like Sankofa Square ( formerly Yonge and Dundas ).

 

[lenaitch]

Location would also be a factor. Was the body in a rural / remote area, or in a more public place like Sankofa Square ( formerly Yonge and Dundas ).

This shouldn't matter. Major highways and roadways are shut down for hours to gather evidence. There are obvious biological limitations and urgencies about letting a body just lie there, but whether it is a farmer's field or the middle of the 401 isn't one of them.

 

[mariomike]

This shouldn't matter. Major highways and roadways are shut down for hours to gather evidence. There are obvious biological limitations and urgencies about letting a body just lie there, but whether it is a farmer's field or the middle of the 401 isn't one of them.

When the patient was Code 5 ( Obviously dead - Deceased Patient Standard ), it belonged to the police and coroner.

Up to them if they wanted us to move it, as a public courtesy, or leave it as evidence.

Made no difference to us either way. Our job there was done.

VSA only, that was a Code 4. Load and Go.

In my experience, here in the ashpalt jungle, when a Code 5 was in public view, more often than not, they wanted us to move it.

As mentioned, and from what I have seen on the TV news since I retired, "leaving a body 'in situ' is increasingly common".

 

[Haggis]

Another Guelph media's take on it though...... some heavy accusations against the reporter. Local Reporter Detained, Equipment Seized by OPP

Returns as a dead link.

 

[lenaitch]

Returns as a dead link.

It was working last night. 'Caught in Guelph' appears to be a community group with a webpage and FB account. I didn't read their article that closely but it was pretty scathing. It seems that they have no reporters. Perhaps the way they went off on the Guelph Today reporter's story, absent the usual caveats of 'allegedly', attempts to obtain information all on their own, etc. prompted a chat from the media outlet's lawyer, or even sober second thought.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

It was working last night. 'Caught in Guelph' appears to be a community group with a webpage and FB account. I didn't read their article that closely but it was pretty scathing. It seems that they have no reporters. Perhaps the way they went off on the Guelph Today reporter's story, absent the usual caveats of 'allegedly', attempts to obtain information all on their own, etc. prompted a chat from the media outlet's lawyer, or even sober second thought.

I'm thinking lawyer,....it was pretty scathing.

 

[brihard]

I'm thinking lawyer,....it was pretty scathing.

If written by a lawyer, they probably aren’t a very good one. It was an angry editorial but really offered nothing of substance.

 

[dapaterson]

If written by a lawyer, they probably aren’t a very good one. It was an angry editorial but really offered nothing of substance.

I think Bruce is suggesting a lawyer advised that the article may have crossed several lines...

From my recollection, it was "how dare that evil journalist take pictures or do anything anywhere close to a potential crime scene without approval and control by the OPP?"

This may turn out to be a flustered officer stuck with a difficult crime scene that they were trying to control to protect the investigation. And with fragmentation of the media, it can be difficult to know if someone is a professional journalist or an asshole with a camera.

 

[Blackadder1916]

. . . it can be difficult to know if someone is a professional journalist or an asshole with a camera.

Is there a difference?

 

[brihard]

I think Bruce is suggesting a lawyer advised that the article may have crossed several lines...

From my recollection, it was "how dare that evil journalist take pictures or do anything anywhere close to a potential crime scene without approval and control by the OPP?"

This may turn out to be a flustered officer stuck with a difficult crime scene that they were trying to control to protect the investigation. And with fragmentation of the media, it can be difficult to know if someone is a professional journalist or an asshole with a camera.

I think you’re right about what Bruce meant. Duh.

 

[brihard]

Is there a difference?

I’ve generally had good interactions with professional journalists on the job. I’ve had my name dragged in public once too; it is what it is. Most of them are pretty decent.

 

[dapaterson]

Is there a difference?

Yes.

I have a friend, retired Captain, who is a professional photojournalist.

 

[mariomike]

Thanks for posting this - I have been meaning to follow up on it

Elijah' s mom had this to say today,

They cannot blame their job training for their indifference to evil or their participation in an evil action…that is completely on them. May their souls rot in hell when their time comes. Divine Justice for Elijah McClain.

Elijah McClain's mom: May they "rot in hell" as Colorado jury deliberates case of 2 paramedics charged in son's death

Jeremy Cooper and Peter Cichuniec have been charged with reckless manslaughter, criminally negligent homicide and assault.

www.cbsnews.com

If the jury can't reach a verdict by tomorrow, they'll resume deliberations the day after Christmas.

 

[CBH99]

Elijah' s mom had this to say today,

Elijah McClain's mom: May they "rot in hell" as Colorado jury deliberates case of 2 paramedics charged in son's death

Jeremy Cooper and Peter Cichuniec have been charged with reckless manslaughter, criminally negligent homicide and assault.

www.cbsnews.com

If the jury can't reach a verdict by tomorrow, they'll resume deliberations the day after Christmas.

Seems pretty cut and dry to me...at least on the surface. But I also feel like there is part of the story missing...

I have learned that no matter how cut & dry some things sound, it's foolish to armchair quarterback anything. There is always something we don't know.

And the media has discredited itself so much that I'm skeptical even when the media doesn't have any apparent skin in the game.



All 4 of these individuals are professionals. And all 4 seemed to think that injecting him with ketamine seemed reasonable at the time.

If we just go off of the details reported, it sounds like cut & dry murder. And maybe it was.

I just feel like there's something being left out...

 

[brihard]

All 4 of these individuals are professionals. And all 4 seemed to think that injecting him with ketamine seemed reasonable at the time.

Is there any evidence that the police officers have any advance medical training that includes administration of medication? There’s absolutely nothing within the normal scope of our profession that would in any way qualify us to assess if administering a sedative is medically appropriate. We might be able to form a reasonable belief that it’s unreasonable, but ruling it in would be a vastly different matter.

It’s not impossible that they both happen to have prior training or experience in another profession or through some police medic specialization that puts something like that in scope. But I’d be REALLY surprised were that the case.

I can’t speak to the paramedic side at all.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I think Bruce is suggesting a lawyer advised that the article may have crossed several lines...

From my recollection, it was "how dare that evil journalist take pictures or do anything anywhere close to a potential crime scene without approval and control by the OPP?"

This may turn out to be a flustered officer stuck with a difficult crime scene that they were trying to control to protect the investigation. And with fragmentation of the media, it can be difficult to know if someone is a professional journalist or an asshole with a camera.

The smart ones have press passes, which helps avoid awkward situations for both parties concerned.

 

[KevinB]

I’m curious as to how any of the LEO’s are criminally responsible.

If Ketamine was administered by the Paramedics, and was administered at too high a dosage, how TF is a LEO supposed to know what the dosage is supposed to be? Furthermore why on earth would they be involved in that aspect?

It seems there is a case for negligence on the part of the Paramedics, and solely them.

As at the time the neck restraint was part of the Departments policy, and they called the Paramedics after use as per SOP.

The other issue that worries me, is the initial coroner’s report ruled out any cause from the LE using the carotid choke - it was then revised.

 

[Jarnhamar]

LE using the carotid choke -

That's such a great move.

 

[mariomike]

I’m curious as to how any of the LEO’s are criminally responsible.

One officer who arrested Elijah McClain convicted of criminally negligent homicide; second officer acquitted

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/12/us/elijah-mcclain-police-trial-thursday/index.html

 

[KevinB]

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/12/us/elijah-mcclain-police-trial-thursday/index.html

Yes I read that. Nothing jumps out at me that was contrary to the department policy at the time.