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I'd say that's a fairly normal response when police are escalating force with a driver in a vehicle that isn't following commands.
Police Folk Allegedly Behaving Badly
- Thread starter Bruce Monkhouse
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Kind of hard for him to claim he was in fear of his life while drawing his weapon while she is REVERSING AWAY from him….but it does show his premeditation.
I don’t have any heartache with him drawing his gun, really. A moving car can still be very dangerous, and at least drawing is pretty trained in. My issue though is, given everything we see, the fact that he decided to plant and shoot.
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I was thinking about this and also training/policy.
When we run grenade ranges we (should) practice dropped grenade drills so the first time we do it it isn't live.
Thinking about the adage of falling to our level of training, what's the chances their police agency practiced drills where officers jump out of the way of simulated moving vehicles?
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Are they engaged in any lawful activity? Not lawful intent, but rather lawful execution?
Halifax Tar
Army.ca Legend
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Minneapolis PD right now:
What will matter will, I think, be the particular activities they engaged in with regards to the victim. Based on the video, very clear case to be made that they were attempting to detain her. One person ordered her out of the vehicle, someone also went for her door handle- maybe the same person? Someone else may have been yelling at her to move. Someone confusion there. But it’s pretty evident that their attempted detention predicated her moving her car to try to get away. ICE have specific and limited legal authorities. In that interaction, were they acting within them?
I’ll also want to know what steps were taken to identify themselves as police and establish any legal obligation by her to comply. They were in an unmarked vehicle in plainclothes and wearing face masks. They appeared to have body armour that say “POLICE FEDERAL AGENT” on the front if one pauses to read it. The only speaking I could hear in the video, however, was “Get out of the car. Get out of the fuckin’ car.”
As the videos start, her car is diagonal across the lane. Another car is diagonal across the lane in front of her with its driver door open and blocking the road, and I believe an ICE officer is out and at the rear of her vehicle filming. I think that individual was the shooter, and some sort of interaction was already happening. A civilian appears to be within feet of that officer and is filming just before but I think not during the shoot. That recording of any interaction will be key evidence.
For anyone interested, DHS’ use of force policy is available online. It’s pretty decently written actually: https://www.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/2023-02/23_0206_s1_use-of-force-policy-update.pdf
Haggis
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Thanks, Brihard.
I just had a discussion with one of my fellow officers about what would appear to be "officer induced jeopardy" on the part of the ICE officer as outlined in III(c)(1) of the policy. Did he intentionally induce danger to himself by his positioning at the front of the vehicle?
There's also potential violations of V(A)(2) "disabling fire" and VI(B)(2)(a) Deadly Force against moving vehicles.
I was wondering about that… I interpret it as deliberately putting oneself in a ‘must shoot’, which would be a really high bar. I don’t personally think he deliberately “I’ll put myself in front of the car so I can shoot her”… I think he was just really stupid and used poor tactics.
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@brihard I was thinking larger picture, encompassing all of ICE activities
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Are you talking probable cause to attempt to detain or stop the driver? Or statutory authority?
On its face from the videos (which are not determinative) the former is quite thin, the latter - well it’s the Department of Homeland Security, and they have a very wide authority within the confines of their federal statutory duty which is very, very broad as each constituent agency is tasked forced with the others. Especially so in Minneapolis where the city and state have expressly directed their own law enforcement to not assist federal authorities. I suspect their is a very high degree of mental exhaustion, exasperation, low morale and general “us versus them” in the DHS agencies such as ICE, CBP, etc.
But more generally concerning about DHA ICE 2025 Edition is their targeted surge hiring pool and screening practices, as more fully described here by Drew:
In addition, there appear to be a concerning number of so called tac teams who have all kinds of patches and challenge coins but little common sense and even less training. (In distinction to the thousands of well trained and highly competent Federal law enforcement who are smart enough to avoid these raids and sweeps). These are not growing pains issues, they are symptomatic of an agency that is repurposed as a brutal and deliberate instrument of unrestrained MAGA power.
Haggis
Army.ca Fixture
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Officer induced jeopardy doesn't have to be deliberate. It could be the result of poor training or situational awareness (not reading the totality of the situation). Some of his fellow officers reactions would apeak to that with their "oh, hell, no!" type reactions.
Now, policy violations may not equate to criminal conduct but they could influence the government's decision to indemnify the oficer.
Well sure. In a bigger picture sense, ICE still has legal authority to enforce U.S. immigration and customs law, even if they go about it very hamfistedly. I don’t know what they were up to in Minneapolis that day that led to this specific event, but presumably the typical mass immigration sweeps they’ve been doing of late.
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This raises the question of why he positioned himself in that spot since according to Kristy N, he only recently returned to work having already been run over and dragged by a protestor vehicle last year
FWIW, in some LEO-only space I’m in with a bunch of American cops, reaction to this has been overall quite negative. Not a lot of people seeing this as a good shoot.
Haggis
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Lessons not learned?
HavokFour
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Police Chief comments today.
www.cbsnews.com
And now the BCA has been barred from the investigation. Very much looking like it's going to be a "we've investigated ourselves and found no wrongdoing" situation.
Minneapolis police chief says "this was entirely predictable" following deadly ICE shooting
Minneapolis Police Chief Brian O'Hara spoke to "CBS Mornings" after an ICE agent fatally shot a woman Wednesday, saying "this has been building over the course of several weeks."
www.cbsnews.com
And now the BCA has been barred from the investigation. Very much looking like it's going to be a "we've investigated ourselves and found no wrongdoing" situation.
BCA statement regarding investigation of ICE fatal shooting in Minneapolis | Minnesota Department of Public Safety
Please see this updated link to the statement below from Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension Superintendent Drew Evans.
dps.mn.gov
Haggis
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Same opinions in my office.
But POTUS47 and ICE Barbie have already tabled their opinions, much like Trudeau did with Adm Norman.
Setting aside whatever happens criminally on this, her now orphaned child is going to have a HUGE cheque sitting in trust for him.
The officer’s name will be out before too long and his life is ruined.
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