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Police in Canada can now demand breath samples in bars, at home - Global News

A few years ago I drove into my driveway to see a police cruiser and two cops, speaking to my wife who was standing next to her car with our two kids in the back, in car seats.

Someone had reported her to police as she was driving home and, no doubt, swatting at the kids in back seat for some reason (which likely caused the car to swerve).

After the cops were satisfied she wasn't hammered, they left.

I thanked them (for giving me the most awesome story ever that I can threaten to tell at anytime in public unless I get what I want) :)
 
ballz said:
, she's lucky she didn't lose her job.

Depends on the employer. Where I worked, they would demote you to an unskilled labourer type job - at that pay rate.

Depending on the circumstances, you might, or might not, get your old job and pay rate back - when they gave your Class CZ or F licence back.
 
[quote author=ballz]

1. The cops called stating they wanted to speak to her about something personally. She asked what it was and they wouldn't tell her.[/QUOTE]

If the police called me and wanted to talk but wouldn't tell me why I'd laugh and hang up.

Then again I'm also under the impression that police in Canada are able to lie to citizens however the reverse is a crime?

2. Five cops showed up in three cars. Okay, this seems a bit excessive to me.
Seems like there's more to the story maybe?

3. She asked the police what brought them there. They would not give any info, but said someone reported that she was driving erratically. Her lawyer also allegedly tried to get the info, and couldn't. It sounds like it was an anonymous caller (or a real bad job taking notes by the police) or else I can't see how it's possible that the lawyer wouldn't be able to get the info.
Seems strange too.

Never thought about it until she mentioned it, but she required her car for her duties at work too. Besides the money she's out, the vacation time, the legal battle, losing her vehicle for a month, etc.... having her license suspended, she's lucky she didn't lose her job.

This is something firearm owners go through when police incorrectly identify firearms and confiscate them. Buddy goes to court and eventually gets his shit back but he's out lawyer and court fees. No repercussions for police that make a mistake and tied up the court system.

I generally think the new laws or rules are good if it closes loopholes that people have been using to escape dui charges. If they're designed in such a way that they can become weaponized then not so much.
 
There’s certainly a fair bit of the story that has me scratching my head. What was said in the complaint? If an anonymous caller, how did they know to go to the driver’s sister’s house? It talks about five officers showing up- was that five at the outset or did more arrive? I could easily see two or three attending (two members is normal backup, possibly one training a rookie for a third body) and then a couple more showing up if they started having problems... Or maybe police had prior knowledge of that address or parties involved that changed their risk assessment. Not sure. In any case, the story as presented is certainly more than we would normally see as a response to an anonymous complaint of a possibly impaired driver who then made it home. Not to the point of being outlandish- but it’s unusual.

We do, of course, have only one side of the story, and we likely won’t get the other one since privacy laws would preclude police from putting their cards on the table.

To date though, nothing I’ve read on this one has shown me anything suggesting the new impaired driving laws were relied on and led to what happened. There was nothing in those changes that would newly empower officers to enter a house, and nothing in those hanged that would meet empower officers to get a sample once inside.

A very real possibility is an officer screwed up and misunderstood what the new law allows them to do. I’m trying to find out from people I know out there. Unfortunately the situation is being seized on as an “I told you so!” by concerned people who don’t actually understand what the new laws do and more importantly what they don’t.
 
Brihard,

While you may see this from an objective eye, the reality is that the law opens up doors to abuses from LEOs.  While those cases of abuse will result in charges tossed out, it won’t be before citizens have to pay tens of thousands of dollars in lawyers fees and massive disruption to their lives.  This is not right at all.
 
SupersonicMax said:
Brihard,

While you may see this from an objective eye, the reality is that the law opens up doors to abuses from LEOs.  While those cases of abuse will result in charges tossed out, it won’t be before citizens have to pay tens of thousands of dollars in lawyers fees and massive disruption to their lives.  This is not right at all.

Yea, because they want to lose their $100,000+ jobs just to find some innocent person and ruin their lives.....
 
SupersonicMax said:
Brihard,

While you may see this from an objective eye, the reality is that the law opens up doors to abuses from LEOs.  While those cases of abuse will result in charges tossed out, it won’t be before citizens have to pay tens of thousands of dollars in lawyers fees and massive disruption to their lives.  This is not right at all.

The legal/justice system is in a constant state of self-correction over exactly these sorts of problems. We’ve got close to 70,000 police in Canada, with easily tens of millions of interactions with Canadians in a given year. In every such interaction a lot of things can potentially happen. So yes, between error, poor judgement, and very occasionally outright malice on someone’s part, things will go wrong. In that regard these new laws are really no different from just about anything else. The same arguments were made in key Supreme Court cases on things like investigative detention, or random traffic stops. It’s the reality inherent in a system governed by the rule of law where one group has to try to enforce same, and others will go to sometimes absurd lengths to get away with whatever it is they’ve done. There’s a lot of murkiness in that ground in between.

That is not me accepting any individual thing done wrong- it should always be seen as something to fix. But it’s unrealistic to expect that perfection is achievable, or that having perfection as a goal should prevent efforts to improve a badly flawed system.

Unlike some others I’m not one of those cops who craps on the Charter. I think it’s key to our society’s functioning, and its protections matter. I’m cognizant of and sympathetic to the liberty concerns here. But I’m also irritated at seeing an actual situation seriously misrepresented by people grinding an axe.
 
Bruce Monkhouse said:
Yea, because they want to lose their $100,000+ jobs just to find some innocent person and ruin their lives.....

You know better than anyone Bruce. People don't always follow the rules or do what's right. Especially, people in authority who think they are above the little people. You'll find them in every profession, including LE.

Unlike some others I’m not one of those cops who craps on the Charter.

I rest my case.
 
Fishbone Jones said:
You know better than anyone Bruce. People don't always follow the rules or do what's right. Especially, people in authority who think they are above the little people. You'll find them in every profession, including LE.

Yea, and those people are such a minuscule percentage that they get weeded out fast, and/or everything they do gets examined with a microscope.  I'll start worrying the day cop misconduct isn't a news story.....
 
Fishbone Jones said:
I rest my case.

Not liking some of it doesn’t mean they don’t do their best to follow it. Grumbling at something that can make the job harder (and in some cases seemingly futile) is a far cry from any sort of malfeasance. I’m sure every member of this particular site is well acquainted with “you don’t have to like it, you just have to do it”.

As Bruce alludes- you don’t play by the rules as an LEO, pretty quickly the defense in a court case is going to destroy your credibility- and that’s something that follows you long after an individual case is done, if there’s any sign that you were dishonest or acted in bad faith.
 
Brihard said:
Not liking some of it doesn’t mean they don’t do their best to follow it. Grumbling at something that can make the job harder (and in some cases seemingly futile) is a far cry from any sort of malfeasance. I’m sure every member of this particular site is well acquainted with “you don’t have to like it, you just have to do it”.

As Bruce alludes- you don’t play by the rules as an LEO, pretty quickly the defense in a court case is going to destroy your credibility- and that’s something that follows you long after an individual case is done, if there’s any sign that you were dishonest or acted in bad faith.

YMMV
I was born at night, but not last night. I've been an observer of human nature a lot longer than most around here.
 
Fishbone Jones said:
YMMV
I was born at night, but not last night. I've been an observer of human nature a lot longer than most around here.

That's a keeper. Thanks!  :nod:
 
Brihard said:
If an anonymous caller, how did they know to go to the driver’s sister’s house?

Because they called her first, misled her about needing to talk to her about a personal issue, and she gave them her location. I assume if you have license plate number you are able to look up the registered owner's contact information? That is what the police told me they would do when I reported a hit & run that I witnessed, anyway.


Brihard said:
To date though, nothing I’ve read on this one has shown me anything suggesting the new impaired driving laws were relied on and led to what happened. There was nothing in those changes that would newly empower officers to enter a house, and nothing in those hanged that would meet empower officers to get a sample once inside.

Under the old laws, would you not agree that there would be no point in breathalyzing her after she had been at home and drinking for 2 hours? What could you possibly charge her with at that point? What would you be investigating her for?

With the new laws, there is reason to do that because "blowing .08 within 2 hours of operating a motor vehicle" is now a crime. At this point, they had reasonable suspicion of that crime. Having her blow and getting a BAC above .08 could allow them to possibly lay a charge. Even if that's not enough to lay a charge, refer to remarks about not everyone being a perfect police officer. The courts will sort it out in the end right? No harm no foul.

Bruce Monkhouse said:
Yea, because they want to lose their $100,000+ jobs just to find some innocent person and ruin their lives.....

Yes, and well-paying jobs and gold-plated pensions prevents all CAF members from doing anything stupid, that's why we don't even need remedial measures or our own justice system. ::) Not to mention the fact that in a he said / she said the civilian has zero chance. That pay and pension sure didn't save Walter Scott's from getting shot in the back 8 times.
 
No one in the CAF has to be grilled constantly over and over again by lawyers just looking for discrepancies that stick with you on your work record.... holy apples and oranges.
 
Brihard said:
The legal/justice system is in a constant state of self-correction over exactly these sorts of problems. We’ve got close to 70,000 police in Canada, with easily tens of millions of interactions with Canadians in a given year. In every such interaction a lot of things can potentially happen. So yes, between error, poor judgement, and very occasionally outright malice on someone’s part, things will go wrong. In that regard these new laws are really no different from just about anything else. The same arguments were made in key Supreme Court cases on things like investigative detention, or random traffic stops. It’s the reality inherent in a system governed by the rule of law where one group has to try to enforce same, and others will go to sometimes absurd lengths to get away with whatever it is they’ve done. There’s a lot of murkiness in that ground in between.

That is not me accepting any individual thing done wrong- it should always be seen as something to fix. But it’s unrealistic to expect that perfection is achievable, or that having perfection as a goal should prevent efforts to improve a badly flawed system.

Unlike some others I’m not one of those cops who craps on the Charter. I think it’s key to our society’s functioning, and its protections matter. I’m cognizant of and sympathetic to the liberty concerns here. But I’m also irritated at seeing an actual situation seriously misrepresented by people grinding an axe.

But there's a better way, a way with less risks to innocent bystanders that achieves the same effect of this law. So there's no need to sit here and agree with the legislation. We can say "I agree with the intent of the legislation, but I do not agree with it in its current form." That doesn't make me someone with an axe to grind, it makes me someone who expects legislators to do a better job. The better way is by targeting actual obstruction, which would mean you'd have to be investigating someone for obstruction, instead of broadening the definition a DUI so that it opens up essentially everyone to being investigated and charged for DUI, just so you can catch the few who have committed obstruction.

Like seriously, what is wrong with this alternative (forgive me for shotty legal speak... I'm sure a lawyer would clean it up):

"Obstructing justice
139. (3) Every one who willfully consumes alcohol or drugs within two hours of a motor vehicle accident, collision, incident, or (weird legaleeze speak for things that can go wrong in a car when you a drunk) and therefore ought to have had reasonable expectation that they would be required to provide a sample of a bodily substance

AND

is found to have a blood alcohol concentration and a blood drug concentration that is equal to or exceeds the blood alcohol concentration and the blood drug concentration for the drug that are prescribed by regulation for instances where alcohol and that drug are combined.

is guilty of..." and then subject to sentencing that is specifically designed for people who obstruct DUI investigations, which would essentially be the same sentencing for a DUI.


Please tell me the issue with this kind of approach to hypothetical legislation? Where does it fall short in closing loopholes that this current law does not fall short?

Because I'll tell you where it's better... an anonymous caller calling and saying you were driving erratically wouldn't give the police the ability to charge you with a DUI because you were drunk by your pool on a Sunday.

Surely there is a better way.
 
Bruce Monkhouse said:
No one in the CAF has to be grilled constantly over and over again by lawyers just looking for discrepancies that stick with you on your work record.... holy apples and oranges.

You're just being deliberately obtuse if you are going to sit here and argue that no police officer oversteps their authority either out of zealousness or malice because they are all afraid to lose their jobs. Even Brihard indicated they exist. Again, see Walter Scott getting shot in the back 8 times as he ran away. The video must be from an alternative universe because according to your worldview, it must not have occurred in this world. Nothing on this list ever occurred either, apparently... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_controversies_involving_the_Royal_Canadian_Mounted_Police
 
No one says "no".....we just know they get weeded out real fast.  Hey look at that link, happens so seldom it still makes news.  Call me "obtuse" when it doesn't make news.
 
ballz said:
But there's a better way, a way with less risks to innocent bystanders that achieves the same effect of this law. So there's no need to sit here and agree with the legislation. We can say "I agree with the intent of the legislation, but I do not agree with it in its current form." That doesn't make me someone with an axe to grind, it makes me someone who expects legislators to do a better job. The better way is by targeting actual obstruction, which would mean you'd have to be investigating someone for obstruction, instead of broadening the definition a DUI so that it opens up essentially everyone to being investigated and charged for DUI, just so you can catch the few who have committed obstruction.

Like seriously, what is wrong with this alternative (forgive me for shotty legal speak... I'm sure a lawyer would clean it up):

"Obstructing justice
139. (3) Every one who willfully consumes alcohol or drugs within two hours of a motor vehicle accident, collision, incident, or (weird legaleeze speak for things that can go wrong in a car when you a drunk) and therefore ought to have had reasonable expectation that they would be required to provide a sample of a bodily substance

AND

is found to have a blood alcohol concentration and a blood drug concentration that is equal to or exceeds the blood alcohol concentration and the blood drug concentration for the drug that are prescribed by regulation for instances where alcohol and that drug are combined.

is guilty of..." and then subject to sentencing that is specifically designed for people who obstruct DUI investigations, which would essentially be the same sentencing for a DUI.


Please tell me the issue with this kind of approach to hypothetical legislation? Where does it fall short in closing loopholes that this current law does not fall short?

Because I'll tell you where it's better... an anonymous caller calling and saying you were driving erratically wouldn't give the police the ability to charge you with a DUI because you were drunk by your pool on a Sunday.

Surely there is a better way.

As I’ve continued to see stories on this, including finally one better written by the Vancouver Sun, it’s looking likely that the police officers on the file did not properly apply their legal authorities to get a breath sample, nor to issue an Immediate Roadside Prohibiton. An IRP can only be issued to someone the police have actually got operating or in care and control on a highway or industrial road, not after the fact in a residence. IRP only applies when ‘caught in the act’. The Sun article also states that she recorded the event, and that her recording contradicts what the police reported- that being the case, they deserve whatever they get in consequence, and she may have strong grounds for civil action.

If they felt it necessary to pursue the anonymous complaint, their only legitimate course of action would be to investigate the matter towards a reasonable suspicion demand, if they had that, and then to investigate the matter for potential criminal charges. Given the facts as presented, I can’t see that this would have led to charges being laid as she would not satisfy the elements of the offense.

New laws vs old laws make no difference on this one. There’s literally nothing reported that wouldn’t be allowed under the old provisions but would be under the new. This reads to me like a performance issue on the part of at least the lead member involved. Probably compounded by inadequate training on what the new laws do and don’t allow.
 
ballz said:
Yes, and well-paying jobs and gold-plated pensions prevents all CAF members from doing anything stupid,

Everyone makes mistakes. But, considering how many CAF members there are ( 95,000? ) I don't believe their members get sued as frequently by the public as members of our emergency services do when they make a mistake. Especially now with cell phone video and You-tube.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

Of course, it's the taxpayers who end up paying the lawsuits.
 
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