PT Time Taken Away

[armyvern]

The sacrificing of PT in favour of work is based on the misapprehension that there is work to be done. I can tell you after almost 30 years service, that work is never done. There is always more work tomorrow, regardless of how hard you work today. In addition, there are those that feel that PT is an frill that doesn't contribute to the quality of the work the soldier/sailor/airman does. Again, let me say that nothing could be further from the truth. PT has a direct bearing on how well the troops perform. Fit troops will always out perform unfit ones. They spend less time on sick parade, are stronger, have better endurance... the list goes on.


As to the jacking for doing PT on my own time, all I have to say is "bring it on". Don't threaten to charge me unless you're going to actually follow through. I wonder what offence he would have come up with...

I'm not sure what he would have charged you with --- but am curious as to where his mind was.

As to your first paragraph ... There is always work to be done here right now. When it isn't ... courses and training cease. It's simple as that. Such is the world of purple here in the home of the green. Although I agree with you on fitness levels and it's impact upon health ... my point is:

In the land of purple these days:

If there's 10 hours of work to do every day (which there is, and which MUST be done so courses can continue), and there's 1.5 hours of PT to do 3 days per week -- that

50 hours of work will occur and 4.5 hours of PT WILL occur. One will not disappear to make room for the other. It can't, or courses stop and the fact of the matter is that the Army will NOT allow for courses to stop because a purple entity decided it needed to do PT. And, if you think the work can wait - you are sadly mistaken. I probably have 60 hours of work on my desk right now to do ... but which I prioritize - but that 60 hours of work must ALL get done this week (along with that PT).

Ergo, no matter what time of day the PT happens as a formed Unit: be it 0700-0830hrs OR from 1600-1730hrs ... We'll still be putting in those 10 hours of "actual job" work each day.

If the member's whine is to have PT conducted during "working hours" so that he can free up that 1600-1730 hours for time at home ... it won't happen these days when the work still has to get done. They'll simply move PT to the 0700--830 timing and extend the regular work day to 1730hrs. It's happening around here now - routinely. I'm in a purple Unit that is only manned at 74% of it's required level due to it's low priority in the Army, and that's BEFORE we fill any of the outside of area taskings (or send mbrs on their own career courses etc) that we are regularily ordered to fill (no fills being non-accepted at a Pri 6 Unit) and every Unit/Command that we must provide support to (the Army training system BTW for all those new recruits) is a pri 2 Unit. And guess what? Even though, being Pri 6, and having our people "posted out with no replacements" -- fully 100% of the workload remains for those 74% of people to do, and, on top of that ... that 100% workload is about 130% higher than what it was a year ago due to the huge volume and increase in additional courses that we must provide support to right NOW. Every day.

And you're right, health is suffering for it. We have more and more pers ending up on stress leave and working 1/2 days. But, that's not caused by lack of PT. And sending to to PT won't solve the situation. Increasing manning AND actually staffing positions to purple trades at the required levels to support that increased Army surge will. 5000 new Army people to support here this year ... and not a single RMS clerk or Supply Tech added to the orbat to support that increase with. Rather the opposite - post 28 of them away with "no replacement".

Doesn't quite make sense to me to keep yelling "it's a leadership issue at the lowest level" or "the work can wait" ... when it certainly isn't/can't and hasn't been for a long time now. I put the blame squarely where it lies: unbalanced and unrealistic purple manning levels that have become institutionalized over the past couple of years due to the increased requirement for "zero" trades as we are at war in Afghanistan. Someone, somewhere, and soon, is going to have to accept and deal with that reality ... before the support system to training and deployments breaks ... because the branch around here is already beginning to wobble.

 

[Disenchantedsailor]

I have to weigh in on this one,  finding myself on course again (this latest round after close to 10 years after being on my last Army course), while on course PT happens every day, but as soon as you are no longer on course you no longer do PT during working hours (save for combat units). However, we will kick your arse out if you fail to maintain a minimum standard. I can imagine myself assisting a redress for a soldier who not permitted by their chain of command to go to PT on the queens time.  The CDS has made it very clear, that mentality is to stop not tommorrow, now. If it boils down to supporting coursing or unit kit-ups sure I can see the requirement to limit or even deny a mbrs normal PT Schedule, that said, it should be an infrequent restriction and not a daily one.  There is no reason why mbrs of todays army (navy or airforce) cannot go to the base gym during Her Majesty's precious time, even if it means 1 person goes at 8, the next at 9 the next at 10 and so on.  The fact is that any member of the CF no matter the cap badge, colour of uniform could see themselves preparing for deployment tommorrow and if that is the day they start preparing thier body for the riguors of combat, it is too late, supervisors at all levels must ensure not only that thier soldiers have the time to stay in shape, but that they do stay in shape.  And Vern I totally understand your particular predicament being out your way not that long ago,  maybe the answer is telling the schools, my soldiers are out for pt come back in an hour, and let them complain all they want, they do PT at 5 am,  but their soldiers are students on a course where time is limited,  and I could be wrong but all courses have a course storesman, who can manage thier day around another units PT schedule.  I know its a rather black and white way of looking at it.

 

[armyvern]

And Vern I totally understand your particular predicament being out your way not that long ago,  maybe the answer is telling the schools, my soldiers are out for pt come back in an hour, and let them complain all they want, they do PT at 5 am,  but their soldiers are students on a course where time is limited,  and I could be wrong but all courses have a course storesman, who can manage thier day around another units PT schedule.  I know its a rather black and white way of looking at it.

Exactly. We work at the courses/CTC/CFSME/LFAA (TC) convenience due to their students/course time being limited. Too many schools, too many courses, not enough support staff and each and every's schools idea of "timings good for them" conflicts with timings that are "good for other schools". Essentially, during the timings that the Inf School does NOT need us, one of the other schools does ... and so on. Our work can not get passed off because "it's always there" ... if those courses are to maintain training. Essentially, every hour between 0730-1600 hrs ONE of those courses in ONE of those schools needs us - and it's always "essential" that we comply with their timings in order not to effect their op routine.

PT happens during hours that the schools do not need us - whether that be 1600-1730hrs or whatever.

Geez, we even had complaints about the lack of support which occured last Friday morning ... while we were out doing our friggin' BFT for crying out loud. And, we had split staff. 2 BFTs - 2 Fridays in a row - yet still complaints about "the minimal staff being at clothing to serve our students". It's a lovely work enviornment to be in routinely. Not.

 

[Run away gun]

I have to weigh in on this one,  finding myself on course again (this latest round after close to 10 years after being on my last Army course), while on course PT happens every day, but as soon as you are no longer on course you no longer do PT during working hours (save for combat units). However, we will kick your arse out if you fail to maintain a minimum standard. I can imagine myself assisting a redress for a soldier who not permitted by their chain of command to go to PT on the queens time.  Th

There are only a couple units in this army that will keep you in shape from just doing unit morning PT. And people who are failing standard annual PT tests are not in this units. Passing a BFT or express test does not make you fit.

It is the responsibility of the member to keep up to snuff on their own PT standard, so they can continue to do their job when the poo hits the fan. Duty, Honor, Integrity, Self Discipline.

 

[ModlrMike]

Vern, your points are well taken, and you're right, work for courses etc can't be left overnight. I lay the blame for the PT vs trg on the bean counters who demanded that courses be shortened in order to meet some arbitrary measure of fiscal efficiency. The result was that PT was cut out of the course because was felt that it didn't contribute to core skills or knowledge. Now that we're required to renew our focus on PT, we still have the same number of trg days, but have to add PT back to the schedule.

I'm not sure what the solution is, except to say that we need to create a culture of fitness similar to our British and American cousins. For them, PT is a core value that trumps most everything else. It starts in basic trg, is continued through trades trg, and becomes a way of life for most of the soldiers. By creating this culture of fitness, it becomes the expectation at home, and while on course. Hopefully, the CDS direction on fitness will allow for some lengthening of courses in order to include more PT.

 

[ModlrMike]

It is the responsibility of the member to keep up to snuff on their own PT standard, so they can continue to do their job when the poo hits the fan. Duty, Honor, Integrity, Self Discipline.

Yes it is, however if fitness is a condition of service, then the Service has an obligation to provide the time and facilities required to maintain ones' fitness, and not lay the entire burden on the member.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Different units have different SOPs.  My current unit, we get 3 x PT sessions (individual trng) Mon-Wed-Fri from 0730-0830, and have to be at the shop NLT 0915.  There is flexibility with that, and it boils down to we are authorized 4.5 hours a week, if we want to break it down differently if we want to do something like swimming at lunch, etc and provided it doesn't interfere with high priority work or timings.  This is great because it allows us to schedule PT around med/dent/etc appointments.

There is not a huge stress on the importance of PT in my current unit and there are some FAT people walking around here, but that has no bearing on what I do/do not do.  Someone having a lower standard is not a reason/excuse for me to have one as well. 

As for all these comments about 'on the Queens time' for PT, shake your heads.  You aren't some unionized federal public servant on hourly wages.  You are mbrs of the CF.  You are paid a monthly wage, which is the equivalent of being a salary employee, right?  You are subject to the CSD 24/7 because, effectively and officially, you are on duty every single second you are not on Leave, at which point in time you are not on duty, but still subject to the CSD.  So effectively, unless you have a Leave Pass, you ARE on the Queens time.  Disagree?  Fine.  Next time your unit practices its recall/fan out list, when they call you, tell them you don't have to come in because "you aren't on the clock right now".  I am betting you'll be the guest of the CSM and/or Adjt in the near future.  8)

We are off from 1200-1300 for lunch where I am.  Some people waste that hour.  Sometimes I work thru it.  Most time, I am at the gym lifting weights for 40 minutes (easy to do if you Superset your workout).  I am usually then back at the gym at 1530 for a 2nd round of cardio, and home well in time for The Simspsons at 1700.  With the evening to myself, and up to 3 PT sessions done between 0630-1700.  It can be done.

For the original poster, talk to your immediate superior vebally, explain the situation and ask for PT time.  If you get the run around, thats time to start with memo's, referencing the applicable CANFORGENs, DAODs, etc.  If you need help with that stuff and can't get it at your unit, by all means, PM me and I will help.

 

[PO2FinClk]

DAOD 5023-2

Context
The CF is committed to maintaining high levels of operational effectiveness and readiness.

To achieve high levels of operational effectiveness and readiness, CF members are required to be physically fit and able to perform general military, common defence and security duties, as well as meet the demands of their military occupation.

Physical fitness is a minimum operational standard as set out in DAOD 5023-1, Minimum Operational Standards Related To Universality of Service.

Participation
CF members of the Regular Force and Primary Reserve shall participate in regular physical fitness training. COs are responsible to ensure that CF members are provided opportunities to conduct physical fitness activities during normal working hours when circumstances permit. When this is not feasible, CF members should conduct physical fitness activities outside normal working hours. As general guidance, physical fitness activities should be conducted in 60-minute sessions, a minimum of five times per week.

 

[jzaidi1]

I remember PT - While at CFSCE we have a Warrant Officer who'd get SO giddy about PT everyday it drove us to HATE it.  Every other unit did PT on Fridays and did something fun like play soccer or cross training, but our Squadron was different - it was always running, the same circuit every time 5 days a week.  It became a routine mainly becaused it never really challenged us to stretch ourselves beyond our limits.  I wish that structured weight training and upper strength training be included but that was something that had to be done on our own time.  Now that I am older I can appreciate the WO's enthusiasm for keeping physically fit.

J

 

[Faustina]

ArmyVerne, I tried to use part of your post as a quote but..tech issue..using a laptop for the first time.  Anyhow, you really know the issue and I totally understand that the purple trade is slammed.  However, I think that some people (at least myself) would like to have the option of working late OR doing PT on your own time.  For myself, as an ex-smoker, that would work best.  For others with family obligations and so on, that would not work.  Maybe I am just craving being treated like a grown-up.  But also, I find that a day of sedentary work really burns me out and it is almost impossible to dredge up the ambition to work out by the time I get home in the afternoon.  I read somewhere that people that do their work-outs earlier in the day tend to keep doing it.

I don't resent smokers that take smoke-breaks except when they don't make up the time.  Most smokers I know - and remember I was one for many eons - do that gladly.  Well, I'm like that with running/fitness.  That endorphine release gets me thru my nic fits, which I will probably have for the rest of my life.  The other issue that bothered me about PT time being taken away was the lack of support for fitness.  At my last unit, my CC used to take me out running at lunch and run intervals with me and check my push-ups.  I miss having someone give a &^%$...know what I mean?

There is a light at the end of the tunnel though.  I just got a new supervisor and he is tacking on 30 min onto lunch 2 to 3 times weekly (starting tomorrow) for PT.  I am still going to invest a lot of my personal time in PT though..at my age it's all about the maintenance.  He has also threatened  : to "spot check" and take us for a run...bring it on!

 

[ArmyRick]

From what I see, it is a leadership issue but not at the MCPL/SGT/WO level. It goes much, much higher level. I think it needs to be command riven that PT is going to happen on work time. If this means we have tio up recruiting for purple hats or hire civies to help out, or whatever, it can be done. It is not at our level that this problem can be solved, I am looking at LFC or area commanders mandating and the decision being enforced.