QOR Para Coy & parachute tasking reserve sub-units

[Mr. Ted]

Well now a few of you have me curious.

It was suggested a few times in above posts that no one would doubt the veracity of the QOR having a jump status if we  saw them in action.

So let me ask the question for those of you who can actually attest to this:  Once on the ground, are the QOR jump cadre members more motivated, more agressive, more professional?

Because it's my understanding that to serve in the QOR's jump unit/cader/pltn/coy one still needs to complete a version of the AIC or Para Indoc or whatever the beast be named these days.  Does the basic para course and the para indoc course and the esprit of the maroon beret lead to a better infanteer once on the ground?

Mr. Ted

P.S.  I remember when I was a highlander being envious of the QOR jump smocks/maroon beret combo.  It was so...so....4 PARA in a dashing English way.  Does a CADPAT jump smock exists?  Jump boots?

 

[4CDO PARA]

In my opinion, YES. The QOR Para Coy does indeed host the fittest, most competent and highly motivated soldiers in the Regiment, and the standard expected of them as jumpers is set very high. At the very least in the minds of the soldiers, the Maroon beret represents infinitely more than a unique delivery-related tasking. Fitter, Faster, Smarter, Keener. That being said, there little or no friction/bravado between the Jumpers and non-para qualified Riflemen in the QOR, both work together almost seamlessly. After all, every Jumper was a LEG once... ;D There are plenty of keen Infantry that don't have wings yet. QOR do have a version of the AIC/Para Indoc. and receiving your silver ( white ) wings is dependant upon your successful completion of that training. There is no CadPat smock and creating one probably hasn't been seriously considered outside the walls of our Mess. There are no "jump boots" either, although many jumpers have their combat boots resoled a la' Vibram wedge sole, wear Magnums or other more comfortable boots in the field with little hassle from the Sergeant Major.

 

[Mr. Ted]

Thanks for the info.  Interesting to know.

It sounds like you are an active member.  What is the AIC or Para Indo like in the QOR?  Run independantly by the unit?  Up at Pet?  I'm assuming it's about a week of high-speed low drag infantry stuff.  Curious if anyone knows what the course is actually composed of.

The reason I ask is I had the opportunity to both peruse a couple copies of the Jab online as well as a quick visit to the Moss Park armouries a few years ago after leaving my unit.  The dress of the day was BDUs with the airborne maroon shirt underneath.  4PARA posters on the walls, jump towers, the whole bit.  Was quite seductive, fi the truth be told.

I guess the impetus for my original question was to determine to what extent the QOR's status creates a "better" militiaman.  And if so, how quantifiable is it?  Not just the jumpers being better than the LEGs in the unit - but the jump cadre being better than most militia infantry units.  Again, not sure how quantifiable this is.

On another note,(and a fantasy one at that) -  would love to see a Canadian Parachute Regiment formed with a reserve component - 4RCR becoming 4PARA in the British idiom.  And for completely selfish reasons - I live in London!

Mr. Ted

 

[4CDO PARA]

The QOR version of the Para Indoc is run by the unit, we have our own JM's, DZ/LZ controllers, RM's, Unarmed combat instructors and the only reserve Pathfinder and Parachute Instructor in the CF. We are also regularily assisted by 3RCR para coy. It is usually run annually ( although parts of it are repeated throughout the training year when oppportunity allows ). This year it is being run at Pet I believe... It consists of;

- all ELOC/MLOC/TOET soldier skills qualifications
- para unarmed combat
- basic demolitions
- rigging of standard and non-standard loads (i.e. MG's. mortars. radios ) for jumping
- EPL ( expected performance Level -Para PT testing & BFT )
- Airborne operations ( theory )
- Para history
- Para first-aid
- Comms refresher
- basic jump attendance
- Para skills refresher
- DZ drills
- swim test

The only time the maroon shirts come out around Moss Park these days are during PT( which is every week ) and o civvie dress. The Airborne memorabilia and towers / landing swings are still there. In terms of "quantifiable proof that the Airborne standards produce superior Primary Reservists? I will have to be real honest here, at my rank I am not privy to such stats,  and way too biased a soldier in my current position to give you an empirical, accurate assessment of that. My opinion would be purely based on my limited personal experience. ( <---- read YES, of course it does! ) There are individual Reserve infantrymen that wear a green beret, balmoral or whatever that are better soldiers than some individuals that wear a maroon beret, the status does not make them supermen by any means. The standards they are held to as a unit, however, does in my opinion produce a keener group of soldiers and ( given their competitive nature )  I think you will  find they will relish any opportunity to prove it. 
4Para eeeh? How about 4CDO??  Sounds interesting  .... to sleep, perchance to dream.

 

[Mr. Ted]

Excellent post!  Thank you for your well-written intelligent reply.

Man, I've been wondering about that Para Indoc for quite some time.  I appreciate the info.

I remember reading in the Jab that the basic mil para course makes a parachutist - but not a military paratrooper.  The para fitness test plus para indoc do that.  An important distinction.

Enjoy your unit, your maroon beret, your wings and your ability to jump out of perfectly good ariplanes on a regular basis.  You'll look back on that for the rest of your life as something you did that very, very few others have done.

Cheers,

Mr. Ted

P.S.  I will continue to dream of one day re-upping with a comission to serve as a platoon commander within a reserve para entity - a fantasy I know.  Especially in today's political climate.  But it keeps me from going nuts with this meaningless job I currently have (that makes me a lot of money! - right now it's Ducati SuperSports and Audi A4 quattros) but otherwise leaves a guy unfulfilled.  Pharma sales are lucrative but ultimately unsatisfying.  A happy life is one led while paying attention to inner desires and passions.  So it's financial consolidation time right now, but my early semi-retirement plans include re-upping as an officer.  A dream, yes.  But I can't stop dreaming about it during every useless, boring, inconsiquential meeting while my eyes glaze over like a freshly baked Krispy-Kremes...

 

[Danjanou]

....   But I can't stop dreaming about it during every useless, boring, inconsiquential meeting while my eyes glaze over like a freshly baked Krispy-Kremes...

God why does that sound familiar?

I guess they were right when they say absence makes the heart grow fonder.

 

[bossi]

Sorry, I have to offer a dissenting view since it would be unethical for me to remain silent (as unpopular as it may seem).

I've run across more back-stabbers and ill-disciplined louts from the QOR than ANY other unit, ever.
Unfortunately, it seems that the "independent" characteristic of parachute troops has been taken to an extreme - one individual stated in a public forum that his motto was " F buddy before buddy F's you".

Another drunken fraud pretended that his lack of attention to detail and inability to properly plan ahead were his way of injecting "value-added fog of war" into training (e.g. he'd regularly have a "brilliant idea" Friday night getting onto the bus, as opposed to any of the planning meetings held weeks beforehand ...), while on more than one occasion I personally witnessed his excessing drinking cause him to be late for duty the next day (and then he'd laugh it off).

Without exception, the worst examples I've personally seen from the QOR have been those who worshipped the maroon beret.
I could go on, and on, and on, but better not - suffice it to say that I feel very strongly that the perceived "jump task" has not resulted in a better unit.

I'd also point to some statistical evidence that can not be refuted - there are several other units in Toronto who are stronger and have a better track record than the QOR.  From this I deduce that the para role has not helped the QOR become a "better" unit.

Finally, I'd also point out that I've worked alongside many other maroon berets (Canadian, US, British, and other countries) who have been excellent soldiers - some of the best I've ever met - and I include the Canadian Airborne Regiment - in comparison to them, the QOR's I'm talking about are an embarassment - thus, I'd like to underscore my comments by assuring you I have the utmost respect for real parachute troops.

 

[Blindspot]

I've run across more back-stabbers and ill-disciplined louts from the QOR than ANY other unit, ever.

Sounds like a quote from one of those disgrunted, pompous officers who are always out to disaffect Major Sharpe.

Unfortunately, it seems that the "independent" characteristic of parachute troops has been taken to an extreme - one individual stated in a public forum that his motto was " F buddy before buddy F's you".

Another drunken fraud pretended that his lack of attention to detail and inability to properly plan ahead were his way of injecting "value-added fog of war" into training (e.g. he'd regularly have a "brilliant idea" Friday night getting onto the bus, as opposed to any of the planning meetings held weeks beforehand ...), while on more than one occasion I personally witnessed his excessing drinking cause him to be late for duty the next day (and then he'd laugh it off).

I've had similar experiences with members of the Tor Scots. They don't have a jump company. Perhaps the extreme cases you mention are highlighted simply because they wear a maroon beret.

I'd also point to some statistical evidence that can not be refuted - there are several other units in Toronto who are stronger and have a better track record than the QOR.   From this I deduce that the para role has not helped the QOR become a "better" unit.

What do you mean by "stronger" and "better track record"? What statistical evidence?

Finally, I'd also point out that I've worked alongside many other maroon berets (Canadian, US, British, and other countries) who have been excellent soldiers - some of the best I've ever met - and I include the Canadian Airborne Regiment - in comparison to them, the QOR's I'm talking about are an embarassment - thus, I'd like to underscore my comments by assuring you I have the utmost respect for real parachute troops.

I'm sure you will find your "embarassments" in those other units you mention as well.

 

[bossi]

Sounds like a quote from one of those disgrunted, pompous officers who are always out to disaffect Major Sharpe.

Wow - you actually base your assessment of military competence on a TV program - that's awesome
(and I'm presuming you meant to type "disgruntled"?).   Pompous?   No.
Now, did your idle musing (perhaps a slur) refute any of my comments?  No.

I've had similar experiences with members of the Tor Scots. They don't have a jump company. Perhaps the extreme cases you mention are highlighted simply because they wear a maroon beret.

Hmmm ... let me think.   Is the topic of this thread "Tor Scots"?   No?   Then maybe the norms I've described pertain to those QORs I've encountered who wore a maroon beret ... since they're relevant to this thread.

What do you mean by "stronger" and "better track record"? What statistical evidence?

Perhaps "effective strength" wasn't described in Sharpe.
I don't recall the QOR winning the Kitching Trophy lately, or anything else for that matter.
And, the unit which sent the most troops on operations wasn't the QOR.

I'm sure you will find your "embarassments" in those other units you mention as well.

Yup, but I was pointing out that the QOR have more than their fair share of blades.
As such, I was speculating whether there might be a causative link between their maroon berets and a perceived systemic abundance of substandard personnel.

 

[4CDO PARA]

Wow, what to say to all that. We obviously have two VERY different points of view on the matter.  I am sorry hear you seem to have been spoiled on a fine Regiment like the QOR, SIR.    If possible, I would like very much to be privy to the "statistical evidence that can not be refuted" proving that "there are several other units in Toronto who are stronger and have a better track record than the QOR". I have no interest in a pissing contest, quite on the contrary I have nothing to prove here ( even if I did, this would be the wrong thread to banter back and forth about who's daddy is tougher like children...or perhaps old men for that matter? ) . Actions speak louder than words and I have never been anything but proud of the performance I have been exposed to from the QOR. Nonetheless, those stats sound very interesting. Just to humour you, if you can't remember the QOR winning anything lately, either your memory is shot or you have just been minding your own unit, which you might consider doing now. Leave the questions about the QOR to the QOR instead of flooding this thread with your biased, jaded opinions based on extremely limited "alleged" experiences with select "anonymous" individuals. Sounds more like a personal problem to me, or perhaps a personality conflict that you're still upset about, rather than anything indicative proof of systemic problems with a whole company that produces "sub-standard troops". Get Real!  In addition, the QOR have won every inter-regimental competition to my recollection in the past 2 years, including the winter warfare race last year where the top finishing team was the Para Coy team, the other two QOR teams placed 3rd and 4th behind the 48th in 2nd place ( a fine and respectable regiment I might add ) . In the Queen's Cup this year the QOR beat the Qyrang in 5 out of 6 cometitions, BADLY. Perhaps we need to start inviting the TorScots?

AIRBORNE!

Jealousy is an ugly, ugly thing.

 

[McG]

Before we launch into a bun fight, I think it is safe to say that nobody here has information to show that the QOR produces soldiers that are individually better, on-par, or lesser than other reserve units.   I cannot compare their soldiering, and I cannot compare their ethos to reserve infantry in general.   If anyone really feels the need to know, maybe you can find statistics showing pass/fail rates by course in LFCA as a percentage of soldiers sent on course.   You could look up results of summary trials.    . . . but again, would this prove anything?

Regardless, I do not think that a parachute tasking confined within one unit provides reserve wide benefits to improve basic soldiering.  It does not even provide brigade wide or city wide benefits.

 

[MikeM]

Just thought that I might add, the QOR had the highest amount of soldiers in the top positions (1st,2nd ,3rd) on courses during ARC 2004 in Meaford this past summer.

 

[4CDO PARA]

In reply to "Regardless, I do not think that a parachute tasking confined within one unit provides reserve wide benefits to improve basic soldiering.  It does not even provide brigade wide or city wide benefits." , I would have to wholeheartedly agree with McG. There should be more. Why have a unit with a para tasking when you can have a para unit? <---reference countless other threads on this topic. Funny how almost any post on anything para always comes back to that. We just won't let it go!  ;D

 

[pbi]

Ahhh-bossi the iconoclast! Now you've done it! Better roll out those statistics or you'll go down under a maroon wave of indignation!

Cheers.

 

[McG]

In reply to "Regardless, I do not think that a parachute tasking confined within one unit provides reserve wide benefits to improve basic soldiering. It does not even provide brigade wide or city wide benefits." , I would have to wholeheartedly agree with McG. There should be more. Why have a unit with a para tasking when you can have a para unit?

I don't see a reserve parachute unit having an impact on soldiering across the reserves either (neither positive nor negative).

 

[Blindspot]

Wow - you actually base your assessment of military competence on a TV program - that's awesome

Assessing military competence? No. It was an idle musing on your obvious, personal dislike of the regiment. Perhaps I could have left out a couple of adjectives to save you from feeling insulted.

(and I'm presuming you meant to type "disgruntled"?).

Yes, thank you.

Hmmm ... let me think.   Is the topic of this thread "Tor Scots"?   No?   Then maybe the norms I've described pertain to those QORs I've encountered who wore a maroon beret ... since they're relevant to this thread.

But you've slurred the entire QOR based on a couple of examples, one of which was written in a signature on a forum and because they wore a maroon beret. If these were your worst examples than I believe all that does is attest to an angelic nature of the regiment. I could produce examples just as bad if not worse perpetrated by members of other regiments who do not have jump companies. Does that mean they're a bunch of backstabbers and undisciplined louts?

Perhaps "effective strength" wasn't described in Sharpe.

Perhaps I missed that episode.

Yup, but I was pointing out that the QOR have more than their fair share of blades.

And you have more irrefutable evidence to support this statement I presume. My guess is it's just conjecture.

 

[Acorn]

Reserve units have no business being "para tasked." It's a waste of resources, and the positive effect on recruiting is too local to be of any value.

It just gives 21-year-old Militia rats reason to pop attitude on guys who have the t-shirts.

How's that for iconoclastic?

Acorn
(Nomex, the invention of the century)

 

[McG]

. . . and parachute tasked units absorb all the reserve basic para positions that rightfully could be shared across the country (with possible nation wide recruiting value).

 

[chrisp1j]

Lets not get in a pissing contest here, its pretty obvious that most of what has been said here cannot be backed up... oh, except for the fact that the QOR pretty much tops every course and places extremely well in all that its personnel are involved in. Lay off the baseless regiment knocking and cheap shots, as look at the mess it has started in this otherwise informative thread.

On to new things:

â Å“. . and parachute tasked units absorb all the reserve basic para positions that rightfully could be shared across the country (with possible nation wide recruiting value).â ?

I like that idea. I think that every-time the CPC needs jumpers to keep the pilots and support elements current, we should be contacting every regiment in Canada, to request jumpers, and flying them from Middleofnowhere Canada to Trenton, 3 days before the jumps (because we have to have CPC staff ensure that they are current because we all know that even their brigade doesn't have the ability or resources to make them current or keep them current).

Lets decentralize things a little more, and hire new personnel to organize it for us.

Oh, and a quick question: â Å“rightfullyâ ?? since when does any person or unit have rights in the military. Yes you have the right to have two pairs of boots (though they wont guarantee a correct fit), but past that, life isn't as fair as the term â Å“rightfullyâ ? would lead one to believe.

 

[McG]

Then share the courses with all the units in the "Golden Horseshoe" and still get an improved recruiting/retention tool that is not limited to one unit.

I think that every-time the CPC needs jumpers to keep the pilots and support elements current, we should be contacting every regiment in Canada, to request jumpers, and flying them from Middleofnowhere Canada to Trenton, 3 days before the jumps (because we have to have CPC staff ensure that they are current because we all know that even their brigade doesn't have the ability or resources to make them current or keep them current).

Or, we could offer up more refresher jumps to personel from the three regular force light battalions, and those personel in other units that are expected to support those jump companies.

since when does any person ... have rights in the military.

Every person has rights.  It's a Canadian thing.