Question for any RMS types out there...[Div Notes}

[284_226]

This has a naval spin on it, so I placed it here...

Any RMS Clerks out there that can tell me whether or not Divisional Notes are allowed to be placed on a member's Unit Personnel File?

A-PM-245-001/FP-001 Chap 10 deals with what is and isn't allowed to be placed on a UPF.  It states that "conduct and performance related documentation" may be placed on a UPF...but it doesn't specifically exclude Div Notes.

However, the "Guide to the Divisional System" (issued on authority of the CMS) states that "Div Notes are to be retained by the Divisional Officer.  If the member (to whom the Div Notes pertain) is posted, the records are to be sealed, dated, and sent with the UPR to the new unit.  These records are to be opened only with the new Commanding Officers approval.  If a member is posted outside CMS, the Div Notes will remain in the Formation".  It goes on to say that Div Notes are to be retained for 5 years, and then destroyed.

So, if I'm reading that correctly, the Div Notes are sent with the UPF on posting, but aren't actually on the UPF - and if the member leaves the navy, the Div Notes stay with the navy.  Can anyone tell me what's done in day-to-day practice?

If there are any other references that might be useful, I'd appreciate a point in the right direction.  I'd like to be able to hit the ground running on Monday morning to get an authoritative answer.  Thanks...

 

[navymich]

Sorry, I don't have a reference on this, but the following is what I have always done, and what I have seen done.  I, as the supervisor, held the member's div notes.  At the end of each FY after PERs were completed, I put them in an envelope, sealed it and marked on it the member's particulars, div notes from 1 Apr XX to 31 Mar XX and kept them in my div note binder.  When the member transferred from the unit, they were included in the file sent to the gaining unit, still sealed, to be destroyed after the 5 years.

 

[284_226]

Yup, that jibes with what I did as a supervisor, and what I saw done.  I'm more concerned about how the UPF is handled, and whether the Div Notes should be on there.  I was always told that Div Notes had no place on the Pers File, and it appears that someone did an end run by typing up a service letter between units, gave it a subject line of "Extract of Div Notes", and placed in on a UPF. 

Not nice at all...

 

[armyvern]

It is my understanding that at the end FY, the Div notes go to the Div Officer vice the members file. Anything that was pertinent on them should have been earmarked to the annual PER and is not applicable for the next PER period.

WRT to "conduct and performance related documentation" I have always been advised that this pertains to official documentation of conduct and performance such as verbal, recorded warnings or C&P (retained on Pers file for career); and the originals of CFPAS quarterlies (only retained for the FY to which they are applicable) and which are all transferred to any gaining Unit if member is posted etc. At end FY, CFPAS feedback session paperwork is to be removed from members file as it is not applicable to the next FY.

Most places though, prefer to keep div notes/CFPAS documentation on the members UER instead of the members pers file. In any case, it should all be removed at end FY, as it is now irrelevant.

 

[284_226]

Come to think of it, you're right Armyvern...the sealed Div notes went to the DO, I didn't hold onto them.  The rest of what you said is pretty much how everything was passed on to me as well.

If no RMS clerks pop in over the weekend and post a reply, I think I may have to hit the Orderly Room in Halifax on Monday morning to get a definitive answer about the Div notes on the actual Pers File issue.  Relabelling them as a service letter and calling them an extract is just dodging the regs for Div Notes and defeats the whole point of having the notes sealed on posting, the way I see it.

 

[Long in the tooth]

In the Battalion 'notes' were kept in the CSMs book, including all the little snowflakes (extras).  When the CSM left the book was burned except for ongoing disciplinary cases.

Anything not posted to the pers file (and most things are not appropriate) at the end of PER season should be destroyed.  The passing of 'unofficial' pers records is not allowed under 245.

It's always interesting what a request under the privacy for all files held officially or unofficially my dredge up.... just like a motion to disclose in a civilian trial.  Anything with your name on it, severed or not, must be released.

 

[284_226]

In the Battalion 'notes' were kept in the CSMs book, including all the little snowflakes (extras).  When the CSM left the book was burned except for ongoing disciplinary cases.

Anything not posted to the pers file (and most things are not appropriate) at the end of PER season should be destroyed.  The passing of 'unofficial' pers records is not allowed under 245.

And I'd suspect that painstakingly detailed descriptions of a member's divorce, resulting financial difficulties, and ensuing medical problems (from over 9 years ago) are probably not considered fair game for an extract of Div Notes placed on the members Pers File.

It's always interesting what a request under the privacy for all files held officially or unofficially my dredge up.... just like a motion to disclose in a civilian trial.  Anything with your name on it, severed or not, must be released.

Indeed.  Thanks for an 836's point of view on the matter...much appreciated.

 

[rmacqueen]

Div "notes" are exactly that, notes.  They are for internal use within a unit and should not be placed on a UPF.  Anything of a disciplinary nature for inclusion in a UPF should be official, ie written warning, PER, course reports, etc, and thus open to redress.

 

[armyvern]

Div "notes" are exactly that, notes.  They are for internal use within a unit and should not be placed on a UPF.  Anything of a disciplinary nature for inclusion in a UPF should be official, ie written warning, PER, course reports, etc, and thus open to redress.

That is exactly the reason most keep Div Notes/Pl Comd Notebook (ie 'unofficial) on the UER (Unit Employment Record) vice the members pers file.
In either case, it (anything related to annual performance, ie copy of CFPAS quarterly, etc) is removed at end FY.

The originals of CFPAS quarterlies are indeed allowable on a member Pers file, and if member is transferred to another Unit mid FY (as is the norm) the quarterlies can indeed be transferred with with it for the gaining Units use in writing the members annual PER at end FY. The new Unit will be evaluating the members performance for the entire reporting period, thus it is critical to ensure the originals of the CFPAS quarterlies are available to them on the Pers file. The new Unit would then remove CFPAS related paperwork at end FY.

If the member chooses to redress, he has his copies. CFPAS paperwork should not be retained on his files past end FY as they are not applicable to his performance in the next FY.

 

[NCRCrow]

Navy Reg Force:

Div Notes are held by the supervsior and each year are sealed and kept by the supervsior. When posted they go with you but are sealed.

They are not held on any UER's or UPF's.
Navy Div Books are held by the DO on PO2 and above.

 

[armyvern]

Navy Reg Force:

Div Notes are held by the supervsior and each year are sealed and kept by the supervsior. When posted they go with you but are sealed.

They are not held on any UER's or UPF's.
Navy Div Books are held by the DO on PO2 and above.

Well to re-iterate a point I made earlier, it is usually the IMMEDIATE supervisor who IS holding the UER...where do you think those notes are going??? Or should your supervisor just hold 2 seperate files on you? One for official CFPAS stuff, and one for secondary div notes? Not going to happen. That's why I said most Units choose to hold them on the UER as that is indeed the file that your immediate supervisor ids holding on you.

Soory for typos...posting loaded.  :-[

 

[284_226]

Navy Reg Force:

Div Notes are held by the supervsior and each year are sealed and kept by the supervsior. When posted they go with you but are sealed.

I think we established above that once a year's worth of notes are sealed, they're held with the UPR, but not on the UPF.  And, if I'm reading the link to the Guide to the Divisional System correctly, they're supposed to be held within the formation if the member leaves CMS (or what I would more accurately describe as "The Navy"...) 

They are not held on any UER's or UPF's.

Other than the Guide to the Divisional System, I can't seem to find any directive/policy/regulation that says that, although it does seem to be the consensus amongst the 836s I talked to today.

 

[NCRCrow]

separate DIV note book (Binder)--sorry not UER

What ship are you posted too AV?

 

[George Wallace]

Navy Reg Force:

Div Notes are held by the supervsior and each year are sealed and kept by the supervsior. When posted they go with you but are sealed.

They are not held on any UER's or UPF's.
Navy Div Books are held by the DO on PO2 and above.

OK

I'm a little confused here with the term "Div Notes".  I know about PDRs and PERs and UERs and know how they are handled, but Div Notes don't seem to fall into any of those discriptions.  Now in the Army, we will fill out info sheets for our Pl/Tp WO and Pl/Tp Offr, but those don't go anywhere but those two individuals 'pockets'.  They are usually lost in a wash within the year and you usually have to fill a new one out for the next Pl/Tp WO or Offr.  In NO way and NO time do they ever get sealed in an envelope and accompany a member on their Posting.  So could you please explain to me what exactly Div Notes are.

 

[Nfld Sapper]

Same here George  ???

 

[NCRCrow]

GW:

Div Notes are a pure NAVY thing found no where else in the CF.

They are notes on your performance written by your Sup. The CO reviews them quarterly.

IE:

29 Dec 2006- OS Smith was adrift for cleaning stations and was unshaven etc.

 

[Long in the tooth]

Divisional notes are just the Navy's version of what a Pl Comd or CSM might record in the course of a year.  As an aside, the Navy produced an excellent pam simply titled 'The Divisional System' which is applicable across the CF (just change the terms).

 

[Nfld Sapper]

GW:

Div Notes are a pure NAVY thing found no where else in the CF.

They are notes on your performance written by your Sup. The CO reviews them quarterly.

IE:

29 Dec 2006- OS Smith was adrift for cleaning stations and was unshaven etc.

Hmm... sounds like info that aids you in writing PDR/PER's, but leave it up to the navy to make some different.  ;D

 

[284_226]

So could you please explain to me what exactly Div Notes are.

Direct from the "Guide to the Divisional System"...

The Divisional Officer’s Notes Sheets (DIVNOTES) (Annex B) allow for a continuous Record of Performance from which assessments may be compiled. They are used for recording personal concerns if they have had a detrimental effect on performance, or for recurring requests, all of which may have a bearing on the member’s performance or employment. Letters of appreciation or displeasure are to be noted. DO and DCPO are reminded that members can have their DIVNOTES in accordance with Access to Information regulations.  It reduces staff work and hastens the provision of DIVNOTES if the members now access their DIVNOTES through an informal request to the Ship’s Office. Persons releasing the DIVNOTES must ensure that the intent of the Privacy Act is respected, checking that the DIVNOTES contain no names or reference to third parties (i.e. persons other than the member to whom the DIVNOTES pertain).

It's the Navy solution to "Brag Sheets" - the onus is placed on the supervisor to document a member's performance on a frequent basis.

 

[NCRCrow]

It is more of a cover your ass device in PDR/PER interviews and with disciplinary or administrative problems.