Question for any RMS types out there...[Div Notes}

[284_226]

It is more of a cover your *** device in PDR/PER interviews and with disciplinary or administrative problems.

That too!

 

[George Wallace]

Now?  Would they be legal and ethical, if passed from one supervisor to another?  Sounds like something that a Harassment Charge could be laid upon if they are being passed from one supervisor to another.  Just one of the scenarios from the HA course would say that they are indeed a form of Harassment, if passed to another person.

Anyone who will have had the HA Course will remember the scenario of a group of supervisors sitting around a table in the Rest Area discussing the performance or lack of performance of their troops.  This would be a more serious and damaging form, as it is 'in print'.

Just wondering?

 

[NCRCrow]

They are sealed and to be opened by only the Divisional Officer of the gaining unit by permission of the CO, if warranted. This is to avoid your situation.

I have never seen any old divnote packs reopened.

 

[armyvern]

Now?  Would they be legal and ethical, if passed from one supervisor to another?  Sounds like something that a Harassment Charge could be laid upon if they are being passed from one supervisor to another.  Just one of the scenarios from the HA course would say that they are indeed a form of Harassment, if passed to another person.

Anyone who will have had the HA Course will remember the scenario of a group of supervisors sitting around a table in the Rest Area discussing the performance or lack of performance of their troops.  This would be a more serious and damaging form, as it is 'in print'.

Just wondering?

Only CFPAS quarterlies are officially recognized records of one's performance. Div notes and Pl Comds notebook pages, post-ex reports etc should be used to compile the official CFPAS quarterly.

Then, those CFPAS quarterlies are used to compile the annual CFAPS PER; at which time, those quarterlies are destroyed, as should be the Div notes and Pl Comd notebook pages.

CFPAS quarterlies may be passed from one supervisor to another if the member is moved in mid FY, in order to enable the new supervisor to write the annual CFPAS PER.

No unofficial records of one's performance (ie Div notes, Pl Comds notebook) should be transferred between Units.

This is why CFPAS exists folks, start using it.

 

[George Wallace]

Other than a 'supervisor's' personal notes, all of this should be done during the Quarterly PDR process.  This sounds like a redundant process, and increase a in a supervisor's duties.  Or does the Navy not use the PDR Quarterly reporting cycle?

 

[armyvern]

Other than a 'supervisor's' personal notes, all of this should be done during the Quarterly PDR process.  This sounds like a redundant process, and increase a in a supervisor's duties.  Or does the Navy not use the PDR Quarterly reporting cycle?

Apparently they don't...

 

[navymich]

George, yes they do use the quarterly PDRs.  I don't know the origin of the div notes, but I always found them handy to write up quarterlies and didn't know any different until I discovered while I was on ILQ that it wasn't done like that anywhere else.

 

[NCRCrow]

Of course we do, (do not be foolish .........AV or Librarian, GW) and it is redundant (agree)

I am telling the forum how we do business and DIV Notes and CFPAS (PDR's/PER's) are two different entities (physically) but merge for CFPAS purposes.

They are passed between units and that the reality.

 

[284_226]

They are sealed and to be opened by only the Divisional Officer of the gaining unit by permission of the CO, if warranted. This is to avoid your situation.

I have never seen any old divnote packs reopened.

Nor I.

And for GW - you've touched on precisely why I don't think it's appropriate that Div Notes should be ever placed on the actual Pers file.  Not sealed and placed with it, but actually right on the Pers file itself.  However, without a definitive reference about it...

If I can't get anything definitive from the Halifax CSOR, I think I may have to try the CPO1 over at AJAG (A) tomorrow, if it's not a snow day.  Winter has arrived in NS!

About the CFPAS cycle - yes, the Navy uses it, but the Div Notes system provides additional support for CFPAS.  And yes, it does add significantly to a supervisor's workload.

 

[beach_bum]

They should not be on the Pers file period.  There is a PER folder that accompanies the Pers file, but Div notes or notes of any unofficial variety are not allowed on the Pers file and would be stripped.

 

[Rhibwolf]

UPF, UER and Div notes are all packaged up together, with any other docs the new URS needs, and sent - its strictly a mailing thing.  On arrival, its all broken out, and sent to whomever needs to hold said docs.  The notes remained sealed.  There shouldnt be any reason that Div Notes make it "into" any other file unless they are being used as substantiation for something like C&P.  (e.g. As seen in Refs A-C, LS Bloggins' performance throughout this last year yada yada yada..) 
As mentioned above, the div notes are left sealed, and the only time I have ever had to open them or have heard of them being opened was on a mbr whose losing unit didnt bother to write a PDR and come PER time, we lacked sufficient info on Bloggins to write his PER.  The old unit was unable (unwilling?) to send a PDR along, so we opened the pkg up. 

 

[armyvern]

UPF, UER and Div notes are all packaged up together, with any other docs the new URS needs, and sent - its strictly a mailing thing.  On arrival, its all broken out, and sent to whomever needs to hold said docs.  The notes remained sealed.  There shouldnt be any reason that Div Notes make it "into" any other file unless they are being used as substantiation for something like C&P.  (e.g. As seen in Refs A-C, LS Bloggins' performance throughout this last year yada yada yada..) 
As mentioned above, the div notes are left sealed, and the only time I have ever had to open them or have heard of them being opened was on a mbr whose losing unit didnt bother to write a PDR and come PER time, we lacked sufficient info on Bloggins to write his PER.  The old unit was unable (unwilling?) to send a PDR along, so we opened the pkg up. 

And all this goes to say is that, had the CFPAS system been used correctly, the div notes would have been incorporated into the CFPAS quarterly PDR, div notes then destroyed (as the PDR is the official document), and PDR forwarded to new Unit as per CFPAS guidelines.

If the Div notes are incorporated, either disciplinary or performance wise into the CFPAS PDR, and the PDR is being forwarded; why the heck are you keeping the Div notes at all? The CFPAS quarterly is the official document for this purpose, and for disciplinary action it is the Verbal, Written, or C&P that is the official documentation, all of which are signed and dated by the member. Keeping the Div notes is redundant...and unnesessary, even more so as they are official documentation of...nothing.

 

[NCRCrow]

I agree and see DIV Notes as a valuable tool even though they are a huge pain.

as well as CFPAS which the Navy does as well as DIV notes.

BUT THATS THE WAY IT IS!!!!! SO WE DO IT!

 

[Nfld Sapper]

Do I hear the rusty lock again  ??? .........................................

 

[284_226]

I am telling the forum how we do business and DIV Notes and CFPAS (PDR's/PER's) are two different entities (physically) but merge for CFPAS purposes.

They are passed between units and that the reality.

The problem is that PDRs are limited to containing Protected A information, and if passed between units (even unofficially), there's only a limited amount of damage that can arise.  Div Notes are allowed to contain anything up to Protected B, and can become rather sordid - and there's no need for anyone other than the person writing them to know the contents, really. 

Now if you can envision said sordid details (which aren't subject to the grievance process like PDRs and PERs) being made a permanent part of a Pers file - and then imagine who may in the course of their duties have access to a member's Pers file....you can see where this is going.

 

[Michael OLeary]

How exactly are they a "valuable tool" if they are "never opened" and the Navy is using the CFPAS as the primary means of reporting?  What are they used for if the PDRs and PERS are being completed properly?  What validity would any information in them have in an official capacity if the previous supervisors hadn't included that information in PDRs and PERs (or other official records on pers files) as they should have?  If the Div Notes are held in sealed envelopes by supervisors, how does the member know they are getting them all when they request them under an Access to Information request?

 

[NCRCrow]

its quiet in here.........

DIV Notes are kept in a binder throughout the year and only sealed after the PER is signed. (My opinion- They are a valuable tool for PER redress for the member and the sup and thats about it)

Anyway, I am not arguing the validity of some of the posters comments. I am just telling the forum, how the (Reg Force) Navy does business.

Bedtime for me, you are all right! The Army does it right and so does the Airforce and so does the Navy!! I just follow orders.

 

[George Wallace]

UPF, UER and Div notes are all packaged up together, with any other docs the new URS needs, and sent - its strictly a mailing thing.  On arrival, its all broken out, and sent to whomever needs to hold said docs.  The notes remained sealed.  There shouldnt be any reason that Div Notes make it "into" any other file unless they are being used as substantiation for something like C&P.  (e.g. As seen in Refs A-C, LS Bloggins' performance throughout this last year yada yada yada..) 
As mentioned above, the div notes are left sealed, and the only time I have ever had to open them or have heard of them being opened was on a mbr whose losing unit didnt bother to write a PDR and come PER time, we lacked sufficient info on Bloggins to write his PER.  The old unit was unable (unwilling?) to send a PDR along, so we opened the pkg up. 

OK.  I have a few problems with this.  If they are being sent, packaged up with all the other Docs, not to be opened........how many times has the OR staff taken letter openers to envelope in envelope in envelope, etc. and suddenly all envelopes are open for distribution or filing?  Nor do I hold all supervisors honest enough to keep such documents 'sealed'.

Next, the comment that they are being sent as substantiation for something like C&P doesn't cut it, nor does it sound LEGAL.  All pertinent information about the C&P will be on the CHARGE/CONDUCT SHEET with follow up information in the PDR Quarterly reports stating whether or not the person being evaluated performed in satisfactory manner, and whether or not they were correcting their 'Faults' as listed on their PDR.

As for 'Loosing Units' not doing the PDR or PER, that still does not justify the keeping of 'unauthorised' documentation on Pers.  It is up to the Unit to get the info from the other Unit in the 'Correct' documentation.

I see some serious problems here for the HA personnel should someone find that this 'System' has in any way prejudiced or damaged their career.

 

[armyvern]

The problem is that PDRs are limited to containing Protected A information, and if passed between units (even unofficially), there's only a limited amount of damage that can arise.  Div Notes are allowed to contain anything up to Protected B, and can become rather sordid - and there's no need for anyone other than the person writing them to know the contents, really. 

Now if you can envision said sordid details (which aren't subject to the grievance process like PDRs and PERs) being made a permanent part of a Pers file - and then imagine who may in the course of their duties have access to a member's Pers file....you can see where this is going.

If that info is indeed that grievous or sordid that it can not be contained within a PDR (which I highly doubt....); there are official means of paperwork to deal with that (ie medical chits etc)..not via unofficial Div notes. Sorry. Just not on.

And if there's no need for anyone other than the person writing them to know the contents as you've stated above, you have just wholey invalidated your argument for both drafting and passing that info on to the gaining Unit.

 

[Michael OLeary]

The problem is that PDRs are limited to containing Protected A information, and if passed between units (even unofficially), there's only a limited amount of damage that can arise.  Div Notes are allowed to contain anything up to Protected B, and can become rather sordid - and there's no need for anyone other than the person writing them to know the contents, really. 

Now if you can envision said sordid details (which aren't subject to the grievance process like PDRs and PERs) being made a permanent part of a Pers file - and then imagine who may in the course of their duties have access to a member's Pers file....you can see where this is going.

Then why does the image of the PDR form filler in the current CFPAS download show that the form is "PROTECT B (WHEN COMPLETED)"?