Question for the Air Force types

[Garbageman]

If it were up to me, all CFRs would go immediately to 2Lt or even Lt.  I felt embarassed for the CFRs that I was on SLT with, as they were only OCdts and were lumped in the same pile with us 18-19 year old ROTP types.  I know they were getting their old pay rates, but the rank on their shoulder still was the same.

I understand that if DEOs had to take a pay cut and stay as an OCdt for a year or two that it would be very difficult to get them to enroll for pay reasons.  I know I wouldn't go and re-enroll as a DEO if it meant that my pay would essentially be cut in half for several years.  So perhaps they could stay as OCdts, but get payed on a different (higher) scale than OCdts that are going through ROTP.  I keep refering back to it, but I don't like the idea of having DEOs who've barely even gotten their first pay because they've only been in 3 months already parading around as a 2Lt.
 

 

[Inch]

Garbageman, I think you have CFR's confused with UTPNCMs. CFRs tend to go straight to Lt or Capt, they never go to OCdt and they very rarely if ever go to 2Lt. UTPNCM is a program for junior ranks to go to university and get their degrees, thus they need to have a degree under that program to get their Commission, once they do, they go straight to Lt instead of 2Lt like DEOs and ROTP candidates.

As I said before, 2Lt is a starting point for Commissioned officers, I think you're putting too much stock into what a 2Lt stands for. They are Commissioned officers, but why should a guy that has the same quals as an ROTP 2Lt be left at OCdt for more than a few months? I just don't see the logic in that, and don't try to compare this to RMC, tell me how many ROTP pilots are commissioned before they even start Phase IIa in Moose Jaw, that's right, all of them. So why not a DEO since they'll go from BOTC to Portage and then to Moose Jaw?

If you think we're the only ones that do that, you don't have to look far to see a similar scenario. If a guy joins the USN with a degree, they go to Ensign as soon as they're done OCS.

 

[Garbageman]

Garbageman, I think you have CFR's confused with UTPNCMs.

Indeed I did.  As the kids say, "my bad".

As I said before, 2Lt is a starting point for Commissioned officers, I think you're putting too much stock into what a 2Lt stands for. They are Commissioned officers, but why should a guy that has the same quals as an ROTP 2Lt be left at OCdt for more than a few months?

Well I'll have to agree to disagree.  This whole discussion started by someone saying that the CF is generally "over-ranked".  I think that 2Lt could stand for a whole lot more, and likely should.  But no, in it's present iteration, 2Lt doesn't mean a whole heck of a lot, which I think is a shame.

 

[Garry]

I think y'all are getting off track here.

Anyone ever see a 2 Lt in charge of anything? Schools don't count, they make their own rules and live in their own world (and rightly so). Look around other Army's and you'll see 2 Lt leading troops- you won't see that here.

In the CF, Lt is the basic leadership rank for Officers, M/Cpl for NCM's.

IMHO, this denegrates the rank of 2 Lt and Cpl.

We have evolved in this manner simply as a way to pay the troops a little more for performing the basic job, nothing else.

Cheers-Garry

 

[Zoomie]

LdSH Leopard Troop Leader is a 2Lt...

Cheers

 

[Garry]

Sure he is- any bets his promotion is in before christmas?

How many Lt pilots you seen? I've never seen one (operational anyway) that wasn't a Captain....you want to prove how much experience that Captain has as an Officer, and therefore deserving of that rank? Want to argue why she needs to be an Officer? Count how many men she leads?

How many cpls have you seen in a crew comander position? Leading troops on a quick attack?

Any bets that any Sgt musician got that rank with more than 5 years in trade? Want to talk about padres/priests and how much time they have in, and why they deserve to be an "instant" captain?

You can find a few anomalies anywhere- but they wont prove your point.

and you haven't.

maybe you should sign on with the crew that's due here next week for the para training, I'll buy you a beer and we can take this further.

Cheers-garry

 

[aesop081]

Just curious Garry, whats your military experience...your profile is sorta blank ! ( dont take this the wrong way, i'm just curious)

 

[Inch]

How many Lt pilots you seen? I've never seen one (operational anyway) that wasn't a Captain....you want to prove how much experience that Captain has as an Officer, and therefore deserving of that rank? Want to argue why she needs to be an Officer? Count how many men she leads?

Garry,

I'll argue why pilots need to be officers.  Launching offensive weapons is an officer's job, name a single NCM trade that does the same thing without the supervision of an officer.  The reason we're all officers is because we don't stay as copilots forever, we upgrade to crew commander or aircraft captain within 18-24 months of being on Sqn. If you start throwing NCMs in there, you limit how many potential crew commanders you get. If you think we're the only ones that do this, have a look at the RN, RAF, USAF, USN, Luftwaffe, want me to keep going? The armies of those countries are about the only place that NCMs fly, since we don't recruit for specific pilot jobs, that wouldn't work too well for us.

The lack of Lt Pilots is due to training delays, nothing else. Besides, being an airforce guy, you should know how much stock we put into ranks. You could have an Lt aircraft captain with a LCol as the copilot, the Lt is in charge regardless of rank on his shoulder. How often does that happen? Everytime our CO goes flying, he's only qualified AC, so some Maj/Capt is the crew commander. So, since the guy could be the CC or AC, why not give him a more suitable rank instead of leaving him at Lt?

The time based promotions are a money thing, that's it. What would you suggest for a timeline or qualifications required to get to Capt? If it's going to take a guy 8 years to get to Capt and start making some good money, their obligatory service will be up and they'll tell you to take your lack of pay and stuff it.

 

[Garry]

Inch,

Well said, and I agree- it's all about the money, and to the detriment of the rank. Use those same air forces you mentioned...many have career paths that allow a pilot to fly, and be paid for his/her knowledge, experience, and ability. At the same time, Pilots may also choose a career path that leads to higher rank. Both paths, the pay increases with performance. This is also available in other trades.

Unfortunately, we don't have that option.....and end up with pers in leadership ranks,with no experience/ability commensurate with that rank....and it's wrong.

If a jnr officer/ncm finds themselves in a situation requiring leadership, they look to the rank- not the person behind it- and they should always get what they expect and deserve. It doesn't always happen- and it's not the individual with the rank,( but no experience) fault- it's our system.

and as for an Officer always releasing weapons......seen a fighter operate outside of a package? or a P-140 that only had one major onboard (ok, low shot )......even without the on scene authourity,(necessary, imho, and always there) we always seem to have some type of command authority in the stream, be it awacs, north bay, fwc on ship, etc.

The Forces used to have a commercial entitled "you never stand alone"....well, they were right, and it hasn't changed....good thing to.

good discussion!

Cheers-garry

 

[SeaKingTacco]

I think y'all are getting off track here.

Anyone ever see a 2 Lt in charge of anything? Schools don't count, they make their own rules and live in their own world (and rightly so). Look around other Army's and you'll see 2 Lt leading troops- you won't see that here.

In the CF, Lt is the basic leadership rank for Officers, M/Cpl for NCM's.

IMHO, this denegrates the rank of 2 Lt and Cpl.

We have evolved in this manner simply as a way to pay the troops a little more for performing the basic job, nothing else.

Cheers-Garry

I was an Air Defence Troop Commander for almost a year as a 2LT.  They most assuredly do command things...

 

[Inch]

Inch,

Well said, and I agree- it's all about the money, and to the detriment of the rank. Use those same air forces you mentioned...many have career paths that allow a pilot to fly, and be paid for his/her knowledge, experience, and ability. At the same time, Pilots may also choose a career path that leads to higher rank. Both paths, the pay increases with performance. This is also available in other trades.

Unfortunately, we don't have that option.....and end up with pers in leadership ranks,with no experience/ability commensurate with that rank....and it's wrong.

IIRC, the RAF has a system like that in place, one stream for "bigger and better things" and one stream for career Captains that will be nothing more than drivers/crew commanders.

In discussing this very subject with my USN coursemates, they told me their system isn't all that different. Lt (N) is pretty much automatic like it is for us, except it takes them 4 years vice the 3 for us, they do 2 years at Ensign and 2 years at Lt junior grade.

That's really all I've got, discussions are pretty short when you agree on 90% of the discussion.  ;D

Cheers,

 

[Laps]

I really don't care for all the "Airforce" thing.  The blue epaulets and nametapes on the Cadpat look goofy enough.  I would hate to be a Flying Lieutenant on an army base...  As far as I am concerned, we are all part of the same team, and for all those people worried about losing their identity as Airforce: GET OVER IT!!!

 

[Garry]

Well, actually, I'd prefer not to.

There's an awful lot of good things that come from remembering your roots, from pride in the accomplishments of those who preceeded us, to lessons learned from those same guys. The Army retains it's Regimental system for the same reasons: pride in the traditions, and honour in maintaining them.

We had one of the largest Air Forces in the world at the end of WWII. We have always had an incredibly professional, competent, and sucessfull  Air Force, despite the size. We have every reason to be proud of our heritage, and anything we can do to stimulate our airmen to emulate those who have gone before is, imho, a good thing.

Tac Hel- congrats! (btw, bet I have more hours in a green fling wing than you do) Be proud of what you do....and the fact that you're air force. Nothing wrong with it.

Cheers-Garry

 

[Sam69]

There's an awful lot of good things that come from remembering your roots, from pride in the accomplishments of those who preceeded us, to lessons learned from those same guys. The Army retains it's Regimental system for the same reasons: pride in the traditions, and honour in maintaining them.
Cheers-Garry

Well, if we really wanted to remember our roots, all the Naval Air types would be wearing their wings on their sleeves and the Army would still have ownership of their own aviation assets.

I feel pitifully little loyalty to the "Air Force" because I've spent the bulk of my career with the Navy. The reality is that we are a single service under law. Perhaps it's time we spent less time reminiscing about the past and more time thinking about the future. (you might have guessed that I have a few strong opinions about this subject by now but I've been trying to hold myself back)

The future is Joint (actually JIMP but why bother with another acronym for the sake of precision?). Let's start talking and thinking that way.


Sam

 

[DZ Chick]

Yeah...I think looking forward is better than looking back.........but then again....I think we should all be wearing black uniforms, big-ass helmets and thigh-high leather boots....and carrying tazers......and guns....all the time.......
.
.
.
Just a thought........

(I prefer to be fashion forward in all things military....)

 

[Good2Golf]

Post-integration rank is fine by me...huah!

 

[used-to-be-EGS]

Garbageman, I think you have CFR's confused with UTPNCMs. CFRs tend to go straight to Lt or Capt, they never go to OCdt and they very rarely if ever go to 2Lt. UTPNCM is a program for junior ranks to go to university and get their degrees, thus they need to have a degree under that program to get their Commission, once they do, they go straight to Lt instead of 2Lt like DEOs and ROTP candidates.

To straighten some points out:
As a UT, and a former Sgt, your take on the UTPNCM program is lacking some finer points.  A MCpl and above can CFR, and anyone in the ranks can go UT (assuming they have enough time left to fulfill their obligatory service).  The difference between CFR and UT is that of education.  A UT gets their looniversity paid for prior to commissioning, whereas a CFR is deemed professional enough to be given a commission on the spot.  Under the UT program, a MCpl and above goes straight to Lt upon graduating school, whereas a Cpl/LS will go to 2Lt.

 

[Sam69]

To straighten some points out:
As a UT, and a former Sgt, your take on the UTPNCM program is lacking some finer points.  A MCpl and above can CFR, and anyone in the ranks can go UT (assuming they have enough time left to fulfill their obligatory service).  The difference between CFR and UT is that of education.  A UT gets their looniversity paid for prior to commissioning, whereas a CFR is deemed professional enough to be given a commission on the spot.  Under the UT program, a MCpl and above goes straight to Lt upon graduating school, whereas a Cpl/LS will go to 2Lt.

This raises an interesting point. Recently we have refused to re-enrol officers, who left and wanted to come back, because they did not have a university degree. Are we still accepting CFRs without a university degree? If so, is this not a double standard?

Sam

 

[used-to-be-EGS]

I know a MWO that just got his commission (CFR or SCR, I'm not sure), but I do know for a fact that he doesn't have a University education.  It seems to be a real grey area concerning commissioning from the ranks, but as far as I'm concerned (personal opinion), they do tend to make the best officers, at least for the troops under them.

 

[used-to-be-EGS]

This raises an interesting point. Recently we have refused to re-enrol officers, who left and wanted to come back, because they did not have a university degree. Are we still accepting CFRs without a university degree? If so, is this not a double standard?

Sam

Maybe their Pers File had info that made them undesireable to let them back in........just a thought.........many variables, I suppose.