Question of the Hour

[larry Strong]

Ok the other application that I know off is this:

The expression is of nautical origin where "the devil" means the seam on a ship's deck nearest its side. Hence, anyone who found himself between 
the devil and the waterline of a ship or the deep blue sea had a very narrow margin for choice.
Source  Random House Dictionary of America's Popular Proverbs & Sayings, 2nd ed.,

 

[niner domestic]

Between the Devil and the deep blue sea: The devil in wooden ships is the longest seam in the hull nearest the keel (there is technically two devils - one on each side of the keel) and is the most difficult to~ caulk or pay. The same term appears in the old expression “Between the devil and the deep blue sea” - which is the hazardous position assumed by a man who is paying the devil seam.  The term the Devil to pay also comes from this tasking and is often used to exclaim that trouble is ahead. 

Source: Canadian Navy - Custom and Traditions - www.readyayeready.com


Anyone for the wocka?

 

[Cloud Cover]

Anyone for the wocka?

I sense you are looking for something more historical, but "wocka wocka" is a current slang term used by sailors aboard HMS Ocean to describe Chinooks.  [one wocka per rotor mount]

 

[niner domestic]

Wrong side of the pond Whiskey...not a sound but sound does have a small something to do with it. 

 

[vangemeren]

Sorry, I tried to find Wocka, but these guys kept showing up...

 

[niner domestic]

LOL, this is going to be even funnier now in context with the above pictures. 

Seriously though, a wocka is how you pronounce the White House Communications Agency which was created by President Roosevelt during WWII to keep him in touch with his military commanders.  The agency has more than 850 electronics experts of which approx 150 of them have a main job now to record the President's activities for the national archives and Presidential libraries.  These pers have had training in battlefield filming along with their electronics expertise. 

The wocka's work became the centre of attention during the hearings for Clinton's campaign irregularities in the hopes that they would reveal captured images of the President either exonerating him or condemning him.  Their work was also reviewed in the aftermath of the Kennedy assassination and the attempts on Ford's and Regan's lives. 

Sources:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/index/finance/ncfin157.htm
http://www.disa.mil/whca/index.html
http://www.amazon.com/Oversight-White-House-Communications-Agency/dp/0160541808/ref=sr_1_3/103-7172302-2761423?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1179841773&sr=8-3
http://www.whitehouse.gov/whmo/whca.html

 

[Spr.Earl]

What was a " S Gun " and where were they situated?

 

[exspy]

Earl,

If I recall correctly, the Vickers "S" gun was a 40mm aircraft mounted weapon originally installed in Wellington bombers as a defensive system then subsequently placed under the wings of Hurricane ground attack marques as an air-to-ground weapon.

Ok, Ok, I didn't recall it, I read this on Wikipedia.  For some reason when I first read the question I thought it would turn out to be a Naval weapon as in "S" gun, "Q" ship etc.  Really, I had never heard of this until I researched the question which is, I suppose, the whole reason for the thread.

Dan.

 

[3rd Herd]

"The Vickers Class "S" 40 mm gun was developed in the late 1930s as an aircraft weapon. The ammunition was based on the 40x158R cartridge case of the naval 2 pdr AA gun. The weapon was a long-recoil design derived from the 37 mm 1½pdr C.O.W. gun.The gun was originally intended as a bomber defensive weapon and was tested as such in a turret fitted to a modified Vickers Wellington II. This was not adopted for service, but when the need to attack tanks from the air was identified the "S" gun was chosen and special AP ammunition developed. Two underwing guns were fitted to Hawker Hurricane IID fighters which were issued to No.6 Squadron, RAF. They served in North Africa from mid-1942 where they achieved considerable success; claims included 144 tanks hit, of which 47 were destroyed, plus nearly 200 other vehicles. However, they suffered heavy losses, mainly to ground fire (the Hurricanes were poorly protected) and also lacked effectiveness against the Tiger tank. In 1944 the aircraft served in the Far East, mainly firing HE ammunition against road and river transport.

Tests in the Far East showed a high level of accuracy, with an average of 25% of shots fired at tanks striking the target. Attacks with HE were twice as accurate as with AP, possibly because the ballistics were a closer match with the .303" Brownings used for sighting (the HE shell was lighter and was fired at a higher velocity). By comparison, the practice strike rate of the 60 pdr RPs (rocket projectiles) fired by fighter-bombers was only 5% against tank-sized targets. Operational Research following the Normandy battles of 1944 revealed that in action this fell to only 0.5%, presumably because of problems in making the complex mental calculations about the trajectory of the slow-accelerating rockets, although the effect of a salvo of RPs on the morale of tank crews was admittedly considerable.

Class "S" Mk. 1 gun details are as follows: Weight: 134 kg. Length: 297 cm. Barrel length: 170 cm. Rate of Fire: 100 rpm. Magazine capacity: 15 round drum......."

See source link for the rest of the article and photgraphs.

Source: THE VICKERS 40 MM CLASS S GUN WITH LITTLEJOHN ADAPTOR, http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/sgun.htm

 

[3rd Herd]

Kinda a quite so here is an easy one:

What Canadian Regiment had 4 members win the VC and then upon the cessation of hostilities was promptly disbanded? It's battle honors were distributed to several other units.

 

[exspy]

3rd,

My answer is going to be the 'Canadian Mounted Rifles' and if I'm right I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with how you worded your question.

1) Private Thomas William Holmes, 4th Bn CMR, 26 Oct 1917,
2) Major George Randolph Pearkes, 5th Bn CMR, 30-31 Oct 1917,
3) Lieutenant Charles Smith Rutherford, 5th Bn CMR, 27-28 Aug 1917 and
4) Captain John McGregor, 2nd Bn CMR, 29 Sep - 3 Oct  1917.

Unfortunately I don't have all of the CMR perpetuating units in front of me but hopefully I will be able to remedy that tomorrow.

Dan.

 

[3rd Herd]

You are right on the regiment but William Barker is missing from your list. So does that mean 5 VC's?

 

[Michael OLeary]

Perpetuation of the CMR

I do not believe that the CMR were ever considered a single cohesive Regiment, they were 13 separate units of the CEF.

 

[3rd Herd]

Perpetuation of the CMR

I do not believe that the CMR were ever considered a single cohesive Regiment, they were 13 separate units of the CEF.

Mike,
do you not hate historians. Latest books have the CMR as a regiment. Hence the William Barker reference.

 

[pidd]

Perpetuation of the CMR

I do not believe that the CMR were ever considered a single cohesive Regiment, they were 13 separate units of the CEF.

If I'm not mistaken Michael, I believe that 'squadrons' of Canadian Mounted Rifles were formed in and about the time of the South African War (including the acquistion of serving members of the NWMP), that some had disbanded immediately following, whilst others either merged with other regiments or formed newly arranged units as Canadian Mounted Rifles in the CEF. 

 

[Michael OLeary]

The squadrons of the CMR which were raised for the South African War ceased to exist by that name in 1910.
http://regiments.org/regiments/na-canada/cav/LSHRC.htm
http://regiments.org/regiments/na-canada/cav/CMR01.htm

They therefore have no direct connection to the CMR units of the CEF, which were raised during the War and disbanded on demobilization.

1st Canadian Mounted Rifles
Active Dates: March 15, 1915 - November 15, 1920

2nd Canadian Mounted Rifles
Active Dates: March 15, 1915 - November 15, 1920

4th Canadian Mounted Rifles
Active Dates: March 15, 1915 - November 15, 1920

5th Canadian Mounted Rifles
Active Dates: 1915 - 1919

Canadian Mounted Rifles

The 1st, 2nd, 4th and 5th Canadian Mounted Rifles (CMR) formed the main part of the 3rd Division, 8th Infantry Brigade.  The 3rd CMR was absorbed into the 1st and 2nd CMR and the 6th CMR was absorbed into the 4th and 5th CMR, so in essence to 1st to 6th CMR all became part of the 3rd Division 8th Infantry Brigade.

Residual Canadian Mounted Rifle Units:

The 8th to 13th CMR were all assigned as reinforcements, details of which we can summarize from the information in Love and Stewart:
7th CMR: Raised in London from the Governor General's Body Guard, the 9th Mississauga Horse and the 1st Hussars. The battalion (less "A" Squadron) formed the Canadian Mounted Rifle Depot in England.  "A" Squadron was reorganized in Canada as the 2nd Divisional Cavalry Squadron.

8th CMR: Raised in Ottawa from the 4th Hussars. This battalion was later broken up to provide for reinforcements in the field.  The unit was raised on March 15, 1915 and disbanded on November 15, 1920.

9th CMR: Raised in Lloydminster from the 22nd Saskatchewan Light Horse.  This battalion was later broken up to provide for reinforcements in the field.  The unit was raised on March 15, 1915 and disbanded on November 15, 1920.

10th CMR: Raised in Regina and Portage La Prairie from the 22nd Saskatchewan Light Horse.  This battalion was later broken up to provide for reinforcements in the field.  The unit was raised on March 15, 1915 and disbanded on November 15, 1920.

11th CMR: Raised in Vancouver form the 30th Regiment, British Columbia Horse.  This battalion was later broken up to provide for reinforcements in the field.  The unit was raised on March 15, 1915 and disbanded on November 15, 1920.

12th CMR: Raised in Calgary form the 15th Light Horse.  This battalion was later broken up to provide for reinforcements in the field.  The unit was raised on March 15, 1915 and disbanded on November 15, 1920.

13th CMR: Raised in Pincher Creek from the 21st Alberta Hussars.  This battalion was later broken up to provide for reinforcements in the field.  The unit was raised on March 15, 1915 and disbanded on November 15, 1920.

 

[Bill Smy]

With regards to replies 2392 and 2393, if you are going to count Barker, should you not count William Avery Bishop (7th CMR) and Graham Thomson Lyall (4 CMR)?

 

[exspy]

Guys,

What a great mini-history of the CMR in the CEF you've produced from this question.  Way to go 3rd!

By the way 3rd, while I applaud your question I'm afraid I will have to agree with the Rogue on this one.  Each of the original 13 regiments of the CMR were designated individually as Regiments, eg 1st Regiment, CMR, CEF.  When the 1st to 6th Regiments were converted into 4 battalions of infantry the designations for these units were, obviously, changed.  As far as I have been able to find out there was no parent CMR regimental designation in the CEF.

For those future readers of this thread who may not have the information readily at hand (and with thanks to 3rd and Bill Smy), the former CMR members who were subsequently awarded the Victoria Cross during The Great War are;

1) Captain William Avery Bishop (late 7th CMR), Royal Flying Corps, 2 Jun 1917,
2) Lieutenant Graham Thomson Lyall (late 4th CMR), 102nd Canadian Infantry Battalion, CEF, 27 Sep - 1 Oct 1918, and
3) Major William George Barker (late 1st CMR), Royal Air Force, 27 Oct 1918.

Rogue, interesting stuff from both your site and the references you cited.  I would expect nothing less from a fellow Royal.

Now I guess it's my turn to pose a question and in keeping with the current theme it will have to do with the CMR.  It is also a two parter.

A)  What was the last regiment of the Canadian Army to have the term "Canadian Mounted Rifles" in its title?
B)  What was the first regiment of the Active Militia or Field Force to have the term "Canadian Mounted Rifles" in its title?

This should prove to be a mere trifle for scholars such as yourselves.

Dan.

 

[3rd Herd]

Exspy,
my question was not so much about the CMR as it was about a couple of quotes from Wayne Ralph's Barker VC. I picked the book for two reasons. The first to look at Barker's brief post war career with respect to his classified secret report(for sixty odd years) on close air support. The second on his battles with the Canadian government, the Department of Militia and Defence and the Department of Soldiers Civil Reestablishment over his injuries suffered in his VC winning battle. But figured the VC/CMR was contentious enough to get the thread moving again. Now onto the "Citizens' Committee of One Thousand"

Bill Smy,
you are right. 


VP

 

[exspy]

3rd,

The issue between William Barker and the Canadian government was, as you state, over the veteran's benefits to which he felt entitled as a result of the injuries received in the aerial battle for which he was awarded the VC.

The government's contention was that his injuries occurred while in British not Canadian service and therefore not a responsibility of the Canadian government.  I wonder if all Canadian born pilots of the RFC, RNAS and the RAF were the subjects of the same ruling as it was applied to Barker.  I was also not clear as to why Barker was not compensated by the British government for his injuries.  I don't recall the book making the lack of British compensation issue completely clear.

I've always believed, and I think I'm correct in this, that enlistees into the CEF were in fact joining the British Army.  Certainly all of its members were subject to the British Army Act.  If this were the case and the Canadian government provided pensions to its CEF members then I cannot understand why pensions could not be provided to all Canadians with British Army Great War service.

Now, as to whether or not William Barker could be considered a CMR VC I would have to say no.  He is a Canadian VC winner and an RAF VC winner, but CMR?  I think not.

Dan.

PS:  What does this have to do with the Winnipeg General Strike and the Citizens' Committee of One Thousand?