Question of the Hour

[redleafjumper]

Given the overwhelming response, perhaps a clue might be in order.

 

[AJFitzpatrick]

Is the fact that it is "allied" and not "Allied" a clue ?

 

[Rhibwolf]

Agreed, a clue is in order.
It included three "Captain" Class Royal Navy Frigates obtained thru Lend Lease with the USN (1 former Buckley Class and 2 former Evarts Class), a US flagged C2 Refrigerator ship (an armed merchantman  BIG CLUE _ close eyes if needed - SS BLUE JACKET)
Happened 500 miles northeast of the Azores

 

[redleafjumper]

This one is a tough slog.  I don't have a record of this incident, and the desperate google search was also unhelpful.
Another hint?

 

[geo]

Very obscure..... find teasers all over the place but.. no detail.... where`s the beef?

 

[Rhibwolf]

Thats fair.  I will remove the "when" part and provide you with:
16 December 1943.

 

[Cloud Cover]

I don't think this is the guy you are looking for, but LCDR Brock (RCNVR) commanded the Dakins (K-550), a Captains Class Frigate.*  I don't think this is the one that went on to become VCNS in the RCN. If you can rule that out, then it will significantly narrow the scope of other options.

*Of the Buckley origins. Note also the plural format for the name of this class.

 

[Rhibwolf]

In what might very well be the longest Freindly Fire incident in history  (~2 hrs 15 min) , three allied ships had at another for a considerable lenght of time during WWII in the Mid Atlantic. 
a) when was this collossal mistake made?
b) which ships were involved?
c) what was the impact on the Senior Officer's career?

Okay, an answer is in order: 
16 Dec 43
Escort Group 3, comprised of HMSs Duckworth, Cooke, and Berry engaging SS Blue Jacket,
the SO of EG 3 was Cdr Ronald Mills, RN.  He remained in command of EG3 and skipper of HMS Duckworth, sinking 5 U Boats in the next 15 months, ending the war with a DSO and DSC with 2 bars. He was promoted to Captain about 3 yrs after the Blue Jacket Incident.

On 16 December 1943, the US flagged merchant vessel BLUE JACKET (6,180 grt) was making just under 16 knots in overcast and misty weather with a brisk wind and a moderate swell running. She was heading for Cardiff to unload and was about 500 miles northeast of the Azores, keeping a careful watch for U-boats, when one of the ship's armed guard spotted a red flashing light. The BLUE JACKET was proceeding on a zigzag pattern when at 0315 GMT, several reports were received on the bridge reporting sightings of red blinking lights. The light seemed close, and OOW, peering into the darkness, could not determine at what distance the light shone. To cut a long story short, BLUE JACKET found herself engaged by three warships, and put up a spirited defence, holding them off. Later it was found that the three ships were HMSs BERRY, COOKE, and DUCKWORTH. Damage was inflicted by both sides, before the almost two hour long battle was ceased. The commanders of the British ships were all heavily criticised or reprimanded and the duty officer Western Approached HQ was also found to be at fault. Two members of BLUE JACKET's Armed Guard were commended by the USN.

 

[redleafjumper]

Well, this thread has been quiet for a while.

Here's a question:  What was the first recognizable rifle regiment in British service?

Here is a bonus related question: Who is regarded as the "...father of  British riflemen...?"

Enjoy!

 

[geo]

rifle company of the 6th/60th
Colonel Charles Hamilton-Smith

Though it might appear to be slow at times, the British Army did not stand still regarding the experimentation or introduction of acceptable new ideas during the Napoleonic Wars. This included questioning the suitability of red as the uniform colour for the army particularly for its light troops. One such experiment occured in 1800 being a controlled test on the effect aimed rifle fire had on coloured targets, these targets being either of a red, green or grey colour. The resulting tests showed that grey was the most suitable colour for a uniform and a recommendation was made for its adoption by Riflemen and Light Infantry.

The tests were carried out by the rifle company of the 6th/60th under the supervision of Colonel Charles Hamilton-Smith. Years later he described the experiment in an article for the Royal Engineers.

http://www.militaryheritage.com/hamilton.htm

 

[AJFitzpatrick]

There was also the "Experimental Corps of Riflemen" formed 1800 later the 95th Regiment of Foot later to become the Rifle Brigade etc....

Someone needs to re-read their Cornwell  ;D

1800.08.25 The Corps of Riflemen
1802.12.25 95th Regiment of Foot
1812 95th Regiment of Foot (Riflemen)
1816.02.23 The Rifle Brigade
from www.regiments.org

Edited: to add dates

 

[geo]

Hmmm.... "late 1799"
Col Coote Manningham and Lt-Col the Hon William Stewart (of the 67th) put up a proposal for a specialised regiment of riflemen

01 apr 1800
1st parade of the Experimental Corps of Riflemen

Corps of Riflemen gazetted, effective 21 Oct 1800...........

 

[redleafjumper]

Some notable research here, but alas, no correct answer as of yet.  I refer to the term "in British service"  which I chose quite deliberately.  As a clue, the regiment in question was raised in 1799 by an exile.

 

[AJFitzpatrick]

Obviously this is not the "right" answer but I have found this
1794.02.27 Hompesch's Hussars
1797.12.30 placed on British Establishment; new coys absorbing remnant of Hussars from Santo Domingo?
1798.01.09 Hompesch's Regiment of Mounted Riflemen
1802 disbanded

And then there is this
1798.01.12 5th (Rifle) Battalion, 60th (Royal American) Regiment of Foot
formed as a foreigners-only (chiefly German) rifle corps (the first rifle battalion in the Army) on Isle of Wight for service in America from disbanded Löwenstein's Chasseurs and Löwenstein's Fusiliers

but this is not a "rifle regiment" in the true British sense in that it is only a single battalion in the multi-battalion 60th regiment.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I thought the 96th was the first Rifle regt in the British Army wearing green?

 

[BernDawg]

Found this.  Any closer?

The Royal Irish Rifles were raised as the 83rd Regiment of Foot in October 1758. Disbanded in 1763 and raised again in 1793

From this site.

http://www.doyle.com.au/irish_soldiers_of_the_british_ar.htm

Cheers.

 

[AJFitzpatrick]

With regards to the Royal Irish Rifles, they only date (by that name) from 1881 as the amalgamation (to 1st and 2nd Bn) of the 83rd (County of Dublin) and 86th (Royal Count Down) Regiments of Foot. Not sure when the antecedent regiments were converted (if at all) to rifle regiments.

 

[redleafjumper]

AJFitzpatrick's answer is the closest yet - the Hompesch mentioned is Baron Carl Von Hompesch.  Between him and his brother Ferdinand, they raised some four units either partially or wholly armed with rifles for British Service.  All were subsequently absorbed by other units, mainly the 60th Foot before the temporary peace of 1802.

Unfortunately, while "bracketing" the correct answer, it is not the correct answer.  The unit asked about is a rifle regiment, not a battalion or smaller size unit (though it is true that some regiments of that time were composed of only one battalion); the other question refers to the author of the first manual for riflemen in August 1798.

Some great history coming forth out of these questions!

 

[AJFitzpatrick]

The Corsican Rangers ? 1799-1802
Haven't found too much about them except for this quote from Sir John Moore said "when Corsicans are in outposts ,I am sure of a quiet night." and that they wore Green and used Baker Rifles.

from http://www.napoleon-series.org/cgi-bin/forum/webbbs_config.pl?noframes;read=64198

In September 1798 it was decided to raise a company of light infantry from
emigre French and Corsican refugees, who had sough a secure haven on the
baleanic island of Minorca. Seven Officers and about 226 NCOs and men
constituted the first unit. Little more is known of this formation until
July 1800, when Captain Hudson Lowe, of the 50th Regiment of Foot, was
nominated Major to be in command. He had served in Corsica during the
British occupation between 1794 and 1796, spoke French and Italian, and had
good rapport with the Corsican people.

The unit, still known as the "Franc Tireur Corses" were sent to Gibraltar
and so impressed Abercromby he arrange for their uniform to be improved,
armed them with Baker rifles, and detailed them to be part of his
forthcoming expedition to Egypt. They were bracketed with the 23rd
Fusiliers, the 28th, 42nd Highlanders, the 58th, the 11th Light Dragoons
and the Hompesch Mounted Rifles, in the Reserve, commanded by Brigadier
General Oakes.

Also Hudson Lowe was in later years was the governor of St. Helena, Napolean didn't like that too much  :crybaby:
The Question of when they got the rifles is not resolved by that quote though

Edit: to add more information,

 

[BernDawg]

OK I found this.

In 1799 Baron Francis de Rottenberg wrote the British Army’s first manual for the Riflemen entitled Regulations for the Exercise of Riflemen and Light Infantry and the Instructions for their Conduct in the Field. 

          Born in Poland , de Rottenberg served in nine years in the French army and in 1791 returned to his native Poland to fight in the unsuccessful struggle to turn back foreign encroachments into his country.  After being wounded in 1794 at the Battle of Praga, De Rottenberg left Poland again and joined the British Army the following year.  As a lieutenant colonel, De Rottenberg was instrumental in the forming of Hompesch’s Light Infantry.  Three years later in 1798 this corps was combined with the 60th Regiment and became that regiment’s 5th Battalion.  That same year de Rottenberg’s Battalion was called into service in the Irish Rebellion.  It was after the rebellion that de Rottenberg found time to pen his manual for Riflemen.  Shortly after it went to print, de Rottenberg and 60th Riflemen were off to serve in the capture of Surinam ( Dutch Guiana in South America ) in August 1799.  De Rottenberg eventually rose to the rank of Brigadier General and served in Canada during the War of 1812.

and I found it here...

http://www.militaryheritage.com/bakerrifle.htm

Is this it???