QUESTION OF THE WEEK

[Danjanou]

As Mike noted some of the moderators were brainstorming over the holiday period (via PM and e-mails we weren’t lucky enough to get together for a beer or two) on ideas to improve the site. Not that there’s anything wrong with it mind.

One idea suggested was a military history quiz or question of the week. There seems to be a lot of interest on the site in Canadian and general military history and a lot of knowledge here too. I’m not the moderator who thought up the idea, but as it was pointed out I’m the moderator nominally in charge of the Military History Forum and am literally full of worthless military (and other) trivia so I was volunteered to run it.

It’s pretty informal and there are no prizes aside from bragging rights. One question a week will be posted here. I’ll try and post it on Sunday or Monday, and then you’re free to post your answer(s) here. I’ll post the answer on either the following Friday or Saturday depending on my schedule. Questions will mostly cover Canadian Army history but as time goes on we may toss in a Navy or Air Force question now and then. We’re also up for the occasional foreign military question too in keeping with our new forum.

As to whether the questions are hard or easy, well let’s just say one person’s hard question is another’s easy one. That is unless you’re Michal Dorosh who is prohibited from posting his answer until Thurday at midnight (just kidding Michael we might even stump you now and then. We tested some of the questions amongst the moderators and lets just say to avoid embarrassment the results have been sealed and classified. Actually most of us came up with some really good questions and answers.

It’s all in good fun and we’ll keep it up as long as there’s an interest or until we run out of questions.

By the way that leads to the next point. Anyone who thinks they have a good question or piece of trivia. Please forward it to me by private message and we’ll add it with full credit to you of course.

Ok without further delay here is the first week’s question:

True or false a Victoria Cross has been awarded for actions on North American soil?

 

[dano]

FALSE.

 

[Michael OLeary]

TRUE

 

[Mike Bobbitt]

Well one of you‘s a winner!

Anyone voting "true" care to try to come up with some extra info?

 

[sinblox]

True. Private Timothy O‘Hea was the only recipient of the VC on Canadian soil.

 

[Michael OLeary]

O‘HEA, Timothy

VC: Danville, Quebec, June 9th, 1866. Award made for gallant conduct in extinguishing a fire in a railway ammunition car; it was the only VC ever won in Canada
Born: Bantry, County Cork, Ireland
Unit: The Rifle Brigade (British Army)
Died: November, 1874

 

[Michael OLeary]

This VC was also one of few awarded during a brief period when the Victoria Cross could be won for actions other than in battle.

Mike

 

[Cadet810]

Why have Valour written in the VC ? If no Canadian has ever recieved one written with Valour?

 

[Danjanou]

well that lasted about as long as a 30 round mag in a firefight.

Guess We‘ll have to work a little harder to stump you guys. I‘ll have another up in a day or two.

In the interm those who got the right answer (or anyone else), can you tell us another interesting tidbit about Rifleman O‘Hea VC after his encounter with a burning train in Quebec?

 

[combat_medic]

The VC is inscribed "For Valour" and if you think that no Canadian VCs have actually had valour, then I, and others will have some serious words with you. The change made to the Canadian VC (which has not yet been awarded, as no Canadian has won one since the change) has been to change "For Valour" to "Pro Valore"; the same thing, but in Latin

 

[Michael Dorosh]

I don‘t think that VC should count cause it was clearly not earned the time honoured way.

In the US Civil War, the Medal of Honor was awarded to an entire US Regiment, one per man, for re-enlisting. I‘m not making it up. And since the records were faulty, some of the guys that didn‘t re-enlist got it anyway. In the early 1900s, these awards were rescinded.

Come to think of it, the way things are going here, perhaps the VC will become a recruiting incentive also....

 

[Danjanou]

I don‘t think that VC should count cause it was clearly not earned the time honoured way

Sorry I can‘t let that pass without responding. What exactly is the "time honoured way?"

The guy charged into a burning railway car full of ammunition (you know the stuff that goes boom when it gets hot) to try and put the fire out.

I don‘t know about you but that sounds like it takes a pair as big as say charging a dug in machine gun bunker, or tossing yourself on a live grenade.

As noted, when it was awarded there was no distinction for actions in the face of the enemy or general acts of bravery as is the case now (Cross of Valour or prior to that the George Cross). Therefore I feel it is a deserved and obviously so did someone else.

I‘m curious though, care to tell us what VCs "count."

 

[Korus]

To add onto Danjanou‘s last post, that railway car was part of a train which had 800 German immigrants still on board. He didn‘t just save the ammunition, he saved lives.

http://www.mysteriesofcanada.com/VC_Recipients/ohea.htm

 

[East Side Soprano]

I‘m not making any allegations, but it seems kind of hard to believe...

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by S_Baker:
[qb]

In the US Civil War, the Medal of Honor was awarded to an entire US Regiment, one per man, for re-enlisting. I‘m not making it up. And since the records were faulty, some of the guys that didn‘t re-enlist got it anyway. In the early 1900s, these awards were rescinded.

Please provide your source of information, I have not been able to find anything that supports your allegations. [/qb]

If you‘ve never heard of the Purge of 1917, I‘m afraid you‘re not very well versed in Medal of Honor lore. How hard did you look, incidentally? And where?

The 27th Maine regiment had 800+ awards of the Medal of Honor, that were rescinded in 1917.

I‘m assuming you know how to google, but if not, try here:

http://ngeorgia.com/history/mohm.html

Perhaps the single most famous event associated with the Medal of Honor is the Purge of 1917. Originally convened in 1916 by Nelson Miles, himself a MOH awardee, the commission reviewed each of the Army medals awarded. Their report, presented in February, 1917, revoked the medals presented to 911 people including 864 medals awarded to the 27th Maine for re-enlisting and President Lincoln‘s funeral guard. Six medals awarded to civilians were revoked as well. Included in this group were Mary Walker, the only female awardee, and Buffalo Bill Cody, a scout and technically not a soldier during the Indian Wars.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

http://www.homeofheroes.com/moh/corrections/purge_army.html

The 27th Maine

The 27th Regiment, Maine Infantry was organized in Portland, ME on September 30, 1862 for a period of nine months. The unit spent most of its existence in garrison duty in and around Washington, DC and was scheduled for de-activation on June 30, 1863.

In June 1863 Confederate General Robert E. Lee marshaled his forces for the move North into Pennsylvania (where they clashed with Union troops at Gettysburg on July 1st). Because of the massive Confederate movement, all available Union troops were dispatched to support General Meade, leaving the Nation‘s Capitol defenseless. This caused Secretary of War Stanton to send an appeal on June 26th to the soldiers of the 25th and 27th Maine to extend their enlistment beyond the June 30th de-activation date. Every member of the 25th Maine Infantry refused and departed for home. Colonel Mark Wentworth of the 27th Maine did a better job of encouraging his men to stay, and some 300 volunteered to remain.

Angered at the men of the 25th Maine, and heartened by some 300 members of the 27th, a grateful Secretary of War ordered on June 29th that every man who had volunteered to stay beyond his enlistment to protect the Capitol, would receive the Medal of Honor.

The volunteers remained beyond their enlistment for only four days, by which time the battle at Gettysburg concluded. Then they were released and returned home. None of Colonel Wentworth‘s men had been involved in the combat at Gettysburg and, in fact, finished their enlistment having not seen combat at all. None the less, they did not forget the Secretary‘s promise. To further compound the problem, Secretary Stanton‘s order authorizing these Medals of Honor was poorly worded. He requested a roster of the 300 or so men who had voluntarily remained to guard Washington, but received instead a roster for all men of the unit. Eventually, the roster would contain the names of each of the 864 members of the 27th Maine, whether they had remained beyond their enlistment or not.

By January 1865 when the Medals were prepared for issue, most of the former members of the 27th Maine were scattered throughout their state and elsewhere, following their civilian pursuits. The 864 Medals of Honor were forwarded to the Governor of Maine for distribution. He in turn, delegated responsibility to Mark Wentworth who had gone on to serve in another Maine regiment until the close of the war. Colonel Wentworth himself, was dubious of these presentations. Beyond his year with the 27th Maine he had seen war, fear and valor; and he felt that the men of the 27th didn‘t deserve such a precious award for their simple act. He did his best to give the awards ONLY to those he KNEW had remained for the extra four-day defense of the Capitol, but despite his best intentions and with no record of who had stayed and who had departed, it was a difficult task. Some he gave out, but more than 500 he chose to store in his barn. In the years that followed word got out about those stored Medals, and thieves broke in to steal many. When Mark Wentworth died, whatever remained of them, disappeared altogether.

Does this count as something more than an "allegation"?

 

[Michael OLeary]

It‘s new to me as well. Here are a few websites on it:
http://www.cmohs.org/medal/medal_history.htm
http://www.homeofheroes.com/moh/corrections/purge_army.html

Kudos to Mike for bringing this forward, it nicely highlights the fact that the conditions for awards of medals and honours have not always been rigorously controlled or applied, a state certainly not limited to the US Army. Our current understanding of such things does not necessarily reflect their entire history. As we have seen, conditions for award of the Victoria Cross changed during its history, similarly the conditions for award of our own battle honours has also evolved to its current state.

Mike

 

[Spr.Earl]

WoW!! What would one of those Gong‘s be worth to a collector today!

Neat bit of History Mike.
Thank‘s,you out do your self every time.

Now don‘t get big headed

 

[sinblox]

Danjanou, I can‘t seem to find anything about what happened to the rifleman afterwards. Since this has strayed off, you should just tell us

 

[Spr.Earl]

Hey Guy‘s it‘s neat the off Topic Subject‘s but I think we should keep to the Topic!
Question Of The Week!

Just for you Sinblox


PRIVATE TIMOTHY O‘HEA, VC
1ST BATTALION, THE RIFLE BRIGADE
The Only VC won on Canadian Soil

Ten years after Queen Victoria instituted the Victoria Cross, a 20-year old Irish soldier won the Empire‘s highest award far from the scene of any combat, at Danville, Quebec, Canada. Private Timothy O‘Hea was honoured "for conspicuous courage under circumstances of great danger" - an almost classic understatement.

On the afternoon of 9th June 1866, a railway train from Quebec stopped at Danville. Locked in converted boxcars were 800 German immigrants. In another boxcar was 2000 pounds of ammunition for use against the Fenian raiders and it was O‘Hea‘s job along with four other men of the 1st Battalion Rifle Brigade to guard.

Late in the afternoon, O‘Hea noticed that the boxcar containing the ammunition was on fire and after shouting an alarm, discovered the railwaymen and other soldiers had fled. O‘Hea grabbed the keys to the boxcar from a dithering Sergeant and climbed aboard. He ripped burning covers off ammunition cases and tossed them outside, then for almost an
hour, making 19 trips to a creek for buckets of water, he fought the flames, the immigrants cheering him on unaware of their peril.

Timothy O‘Hea fought on alone and won. By evening, the ammunition had been loaded into another car and the train - immigrant coaches still attached - was on its way again. O‘Hea not only displayed great courage and total disregard for his own life in putting out the fire in the boxcar, but also saved 800 immigrants from certain death had the ammunition exploded. His was the only Victoria Cross ever won in Canada.

The name of Private Timothy O‘Hea VC is inscribed on the Rifle Brigade‘s roll of honour in Winchester Cathedral, England and his medal resides in the Royal Green Jackets Museum, also in Winchester. O‘Hea eventually died in Australia in 1874 and is buried in Sturt‘s Desert, Queensland.