QUESTION OF THE WEEK

[stukirkpatrick]

Were they not the Mackenzie-Papineau battalion?



Sadly, 1/2 were killed by the end of the civil war, with nothing to show for it (except for resisting facism).

 

[Spr.Earl]

Sorry yes the The MacKenzie-Papineau Battalion.
110% mark‘s!!

Taken from Edited Hansard 1820.
(Our Parliment)





The MacKenzie-Papineau Battalion, named after the leaders of the 1837 rebellion in Upper and Lower Canada, was made up of 1,300 Canadian volunteers who served in the international brigades to support the Republican government against the authority of fascist dictator General Franco during the Spanish Civil War, between 1936 and 1939.

In spite of their sacrifices and their individual heroism, Canadian veterans of the international brigades are still not recognized as war veterans. As a result, they have never been eligible for veterans‘ benefits and, more importantly, their merit in defending the freedom and democracy that we, in Canada, enjoy and benefit from today was never recognized.

The purpose of this motion is therefore to ask that official recognition be given to the courage of the men and women who did not wait for the government‘s formal approval to fight for our fundamental freedoms and against the horrors of fascism. These Canadians went to Spain, where they risked their lives alongside other brave people from around the world to fight for freedom and democracy.

Unfortunately, the Spanish Republican forces and the international brigades, including the MacKenzie-Papineau Battalion, did not win that fight, but history tells us that the Spanish war was the prelude to the downfall of fascism at the end of World War II in Europe. It seems appropriate that these fighters and their willingness to fight for justice and democracy be recognized.

Dare we ask? Why did Canada not accept to provide assistance to Spain at the time? Why did it pass the Foreign Enlistment Act on April 10, 1937, one year after the beginning of the Spanish Civil War? Why did Maurice Duplessis, on March 24, 1937, pass an act to protect the province against communistic propaganda, better known as the â Å“Padlock Actâ ?? Why this discrimination toward our soldiers when they came back? Why give the status of veterans to those who fought in the Vietnam war, but not those who did so in Spain?

I will try to answer these questions from a historical perspective. It may be that, at the time, Canada was a British colony and England, like France, feared a second world war. It may be because the battalion‘s name was MacKenzie-Papineau, in memory of the 1837 rebellions in Upper and Lower Canada. As we know, these patriots yearned for freedom and democracy, something which may not have pleased Canadian royalists.

Around 1835, Louis-Joseph Papineau, member of the Patriote Party, wanted a democratic and bilingual country open to free trade with the United States, a country where Church and State would be independent. At the time, each group had its own parliament. Members of parliament in both Upper and Lower Canada were elected, but they did not have any executive power. This power was exercised by the governor, who was appointed by London. This is the main reason why these rebellions took place. Quebec was hit first. Villages were burned, hundreds of people killed, 1,000 arrested, 108 tried, 60 deported, and 12 hanged. The authorities could have hit Upper Canada first, because the rebellions were just the same but, when it comes to reprimanding, history tells us that it takes place in Quebec.

The federal Foreign Enlistment Act and Duplessis‘ Padlock Act were, to a large extent, adopted in response to requests from the clergy and the right wing. It was also to keep the Canadian right happy when these veterans returned home that they were subjected to job discrimination and RCMP surveillance, and turned down when they tried to enlist at the beginning of World War II.

Finally, I do not understand why Canada recognizes veterans of the war in Vietnam but not the war in Spain. We had no more business being in Vietnam than we did in Spain.

I followed with great interest the deliberations of the standing committee on veterans affairs in 1986 regarding the participation of Canadians in the Spanish Civil War, and the testimony shows that the sole interest of the veterans who appeared before the committee was to stop the progress of fascism and to defend the oppressed. History proved them right. The war in Spain was the prelude to World War II and the end of two dictators, Hitler and Mussolini.

 

[Enzo]

What was the sword of Damacles? (spelling most likely improper)

 

[Michael OLeary]

The Sword of Damocles

 

[Spr.Earl]

Originally posted by Michael OLeary:
[qb] The Sword of Damocles [/qb]

There once was a king whose name was Dionysius. He was so unjust and cruel that he won himself the name of tyrant. He knew that almost everybody hated him, and so he was always in dread lest some one should take his life.

But he was very rich, and he lived in a fine palace where there were many beautiful and costly things, and he was waited upon by a host of servants who were always ready to do his bidding.

Sound like any one we know?

 

[Spr.Earl]

Who was Col.Moody?

 

[Michael OLeary]

Colonel Moody

 

[Michael OLeary]

We all know of the Canadian Expeditionary Force‘s (CEF) service in Europe during the First World War, but where were some of the other locations that Canadian units served?

 

[devil39]

Originally posted by Michael OLeary:
[qb] We all know of the Canadian Expeditionary Force‘s (CEF) service in Europe during the First World War, but where were some of the other locations that Canadian units served? [/qb]

The RCR went to Bermuda in 1914.

The PPCLI were not part of the CEF and joined the 27th Division, 80th Brigade composed of British Regular Force Rifle battalions. The PPCLI were the only Canadian Infantry unit in a theatre of war in 1914.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Siberia is one of the biggies, methinks.

 

[Michael OLeary]

Bermuda
Siberia

That takes care of the easy ones.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

They have seen action in the Jurgenburg mountains also, as well as the brigade in Greenland.

More info here:

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~dheb/2300/NorthAmerica/Can/clf2k3reg.htm

 

[Spr.Earl]

CANADIAN SAPPER IN THE BRITISH "HUSH - HUSH"
"You have been specially selected for this adventurous expedition and is quite possible that you might be sacrificed on the altar of British prestige in the Caucasus Mountains". So was the opening remarks of Col. Steele of the British War Office and the beginning of a little known unit called the "British Hush-Hush" or officially "Dunster Force".
The force was made up of less than a thousand hand picked men throughout the Empire including 15 officers and 30 sergeants from the Canadian Corps. In short, as Col. Steele carried on he was addressing "the flower of the British Army" based on their bravery, initiative and resource and Sjt. B. Clark of the Canadian Engineers was the only Canadian Sapper to serve with the unit. Generally little is known of the Canadians that operated in Persia during the Great War but, their story reads of one from "Lawrence of Arabia" or "Arabian Nights" and how this determined little unit, equipped only with undaunted courage and limitless nerve, held 600 miles of front against an entire Turkish Amy and bluffed that Army to such an extent that it remained immobile for many months.

The unit came into being as a result of the Bolshevik Revolution. The Russian front, which had extended southward through the Caucasus Mountains, across the southern end of the Caspain Sea and down into Persia where it linked up with the Mesopotamian Force (prelude to Desert Storm), had now collapsed. The Russians were crowding back home leaving a wide open corridor eastward to India but the British were expecting a German offensive in France, Allenby was completely occupied in Palestine, the Mesopotamian Army had no troops to spare. With the situation at it‘s blackest hour, a War Office visionary had a brainstorm. Somewhere in the mountains of Persia were thousands of enthusiastic Warriors who were more than willing to settle a few grudges with the Turks, so Dunster Force‘s mission would be to"Penetrate into the Caucasus Mountains, raise an army and use that army against the Turks" and their commander would be General L.C. Dunsterville, an officer who had already been immortalized as the "Stalky" in Rudyard Kipling‘s stories.

It took over four months for the unit to reach the mountain range that divides Mesopotamia from Persia, transported part of the way by fellow Canadians serving with the Royal Engineer‘s inland water transport system. The force was quick to recognize that their mission would not be an easy one as Persia had been devastated years before when the Russians and Turks turned the country side into a cockpit of ruined and deserted villages. The mountains were the hideout of Kurdish Tribesmen who robbed and murdered unhindered along the hard and lonely passes. Famine stalked grimly through the land. The Persians were brutally indifferent to the sufferings of their fellow countrymen. As Persians were dying by the thousands the store houses of the wealthier were bursting with grain giving no thought of the thousands who were dying of starvation. Into this welter of disease and misery rode Dunster Force, before them rose the task of raising an army to combat the Turks, but first they were tasked to ease the sufferings of the locals by setting up supply lines and providing escorts for the thousands who fled their homes.

With the British scattered throughout the mountains in various outposts they hastily organized a protective rear guard to protect the fleeing refugees. The Turks and Kirds ambushed the fugitives from the mountain sides, shooting them for the sheer love of killing. Turkish Cavalry pursued them, rode them down and putting thousands to the sword, hacking and mutilating them as they lay by the sides of the mountains. Many times a small handful of Dunster Force Troops drove recklessly into the butchers, fighting hand to hand, rescuing many who had fallen into the hands of the Turk Forces. It was in one of these rear guard actions that Sgt. Robert Clark, C.E., along with other Canadians, greatly distinguished themselves, with their bravery and fighting ability.

During the months ahead Dunster Force trained and armed small armies that deserted at the first shot, operated bread lines, became jailers, bankers, spies and Engineers. Many of the Canadians were assigned to duties which saw them operating practically on their own in the remotest regions of Kurdistan carrying their lives in their hands. Night and day they had to be constantly vigilant for that distant shot from a hillside or a knife thrust as they lay asleep and the constant danger of ambush in the lonely gorges through which they travelled. After a little over a year from it‘s creation and doing battle with the Turks, Kurds and Red Russians, Dunster Force withdrew from Persia. Even though they failed to create the army they were sent there for, they did convince the Turks they had. As for the Canadians, they all made it out alive and our Sapper Sgt. Clark has been lost in time, but his deeds and performance while serving in the "British Hush-Hush" are an outstanding credit to the Canadian Corp and our Engineer Branch.

 

[stukirkpatrick]

Thats an interesting post. Aside from the purpose of its mission (to create an army), there seem to be early shades of peacekeeping in the Force‘s humanitarian efforts...

For another obscure question, what was the Q-Force, and its proposed (but never carried out) mission?

 

[Spr.Earl]

Originally posted by Kirkpatrick:
[qb] Thats an interesting post. Aside from the purpose of its mission (to create an army), there seem to be early shades of peacekeeping in the Force‘s humanitarian efforts...

For another obscure question, what was the Q-Force, and its proposed (but never carried out) mission? [/qb]

Ah the good old Lake Soupies.
Taken from the LSSR Reg. Web Sit.
http://www.lssr.ca/history2.htm


Just south of Newfoundland lay the French islands of St. Pierre and Miquelon. Following the fall of France to the Nazis, the islands remained (technially, at least) under the control of the pro-Nazi Vichy French government. Concerned that naval intelligence could be transmitted from the islands to the German navy, the British and Canadian governments drafted plans to occupy them with troops. The LSSR was chosen for this purpose; the force it would deploy for the operation was termed Q Force. As it happened, the "invasion" never occurred, the islands aligning themselves solidly behind the Free French of Charles de Gaulle. Q Force was disbanded and the Regiment carried on to England.

 

[stukirkpatrick]

That lasted a good 13 minutes

Thats it, but there is more to the story than what the website posted.

According to the LSR regimental history book, (and a unit lecture they gave us) Q-Force was all ready to go, but De Gaulle did not like the idea of Canadian control of the islands very much, and thus put pressure on the mission. During this time, he ‘liberated‘ the island himself, with support from the french navy (what was left).

Apparently when De Gaulle visited Cda in 1967, he came to St Pierre and Miquelon first, and later made his famous "libre quebec" speech. Connection?

 

[Spr.Earl]

Which Unit in Canada suggested to form the first Aviation Unit?
What was the rumoured action that decided the out come?

 

[Danjanou]

Nice to see this thread is still running while I was away.

Great questions.

 

[stukirkpatrick]

Which Unit in Canada suggested to form the first Aviation Unit?
What was the rumoured action that decided the out come?

After a bit of spare time doing some quick searching, and learning a bit about the failed beginnings of the Canadian Aviation Corps, I must concede that I am stumped...

anyone else have any ideas?

 

[Art Johnson]

It usually falls to the Engineers to initiate these experimental units.