QUESTION OF THE WEEK

[stukirkpatrick]

Well in that case, was the action a hardcore drinking contest?

 

[Michael OLeary]

Originally posted by Michael OLeary:
We all know of the Canadian Expeditionary Force‘s (CEF) service in Europe during the First World War, but where were some of the other locations that Canadian units served?

Originally posted by devil39:
The RCR went to Bermuda in 1914.

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:
Siberia is one of the biggies, methinks.

One railway company was sent to Palestine to rebuild the rail bridges of the Yarmuk Valley which had been destroyed by the Turks. Canadian infantry and artillery garrisons served in Bermuda and St. Lucia; Canadian hospital units in the Mediterranean cared for casualties from the Gallipoli campaign; small parties of Canadian engineers operated barges on the Tigris and Euphrates rivers in Mesopotamia; and Canadian instructors trained troops in the United States. - VALOUR REMEMBERED; Canada and the First World War, Veterans Affairs Publication, 1982

 

[Michael OLeary]

HISTORY OF THE MILITARY AIR SERVICES OF CANADA

Canadian Aviation Corps

On 16 September 1914 (while the original Canadian Expeditionary Force was forming up in Valcartier), Col Sam Hughes, Minister for the Militia and Defence, authorized the creation of the Canadian Aviation Corps (CAC). This corps was to consist of one mechanic and two officers. E.L. Janney of Galt, Ontario, was appointed as the "Provisional Commander of the CAC" with the rank of Captain. The expenditure of an amount not to exceed five thousand dollars for the purchase of a suitable airplane was approved. The aircraft selected was a float-equipped Burgess-Dunne bi-plane from the Burgess Aviation Company of Massachusetts. Capt Janney flew the aircraft back to Canada. Upon his arrival in Sorel, Quebec, Capt Janney was arrested by Canada Customs and the aircraft was impounded. After Canada Customs received notification from the Department of the Militia and Defence, Capt Janney and the aircraft were released. As it turned out, this was to be the only flight of Canada‘s first military aircraft.

 

[Art Johnson]

Which Canadian Regiment has been awarded the most Battle Honours in their own name. That is to say that none of the awards were garnered by amalgamation

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Why do I get the feeling it will be either the 48th Highlanders or the Royal Canadian Regiment... ??

 

[Spr.Earl]

Originally posted by Kirkpatrick:
[qb]

Which Unit in Canada suggested to form the first Aviation Unit?
What was the rumoured action that decided the out come?

After a bit of spare time doing some quick searching, and learning a bit about the failed beginnings of the Canadian Aviation Corps, I must concede that I am stumped...

anyone else have any ideas? [/qb]

CANADA‘S FIRST MILITARY FLIGHT


The idea of flight to support military operations is in no stretch of the imagination a 20th century concept. The use of balloons for observation and artillery fire control was used by Napoleon and during the U.S. Civil War.

By the late 1800‘s the Royal Engineers had established balloon sections and a Air Battalion. It was these Engineer sponsored units that carried out the experimentation that brought Britain to the fore of Military aviation. Indeed the Royal Air Force dates it‘s history back to these R.E. Balloon Sections.

Unfortunately, the suggestions put forth by the 6th Field Company R.C.E. in 1913 to form an aviation section were not implemented in Canada, but the young Corp of R.C.E. did have the privilege to be connected with Canada‘s first Military flight.

In July 1909 the Corp was tasked to construct a hanger and temporary airstrip in Petawawa, Ontario. Also on site were two associates of Dr. Alexander Graham Bell and Ex-Sappers of the 2nd Field Company C.E. On the 23 July 1909, Mr. J.A.D. McCurdy and F.W. Baldwin, with the assistance of Capt. Tyrrell R.E. and Lt. Perrin R.C.E., began to assemble two aircraft delivered by rail from Braddock N.S.

On the 2 Aug 1909, Baldwin and McCurdy made four successful take-offs and landings. Unfortunately the "Silver Dart" was wrecked on the fourth landing. With the aid of a Sapper ground crew the second aircraft "Beddeck 1" was assembled and flown before a considerable audience of military and civil officials. Again misfortune plagued the demonstration and the "Beddeck 1" crashed on its second landing. As a result of these demonstrations Maj. Maunsell, as Director of Engineer Services, was assigned to observe any new trials carried by McCurdy and Baldwin. He spent several days at Beddeck N.S. in 1910 and was taken up on two "short flips". As a result he was convinced that flying had a future in the military and suggested that an aviation section R.C.E. be formed to conduct trials on the handling of aircraft and balloons.

Even though the Militia Council approved his recommendations, the Minister of Militia and Defence vetoed the proposal. Thus ending Canada‘s first attempt at forming a military aviation section. The reasons for the veto are unknown. Perhaps, with war clouds looming in Europe and the heavy commitments for Engineer services to the permanent Corp, military flight had a low priority. But, as the bronze plaque at C.F.B. Petawawa states "The first Military demonstration of aircraft flight in Canada" was in fact a Sapper flight.



The folk lore of 6Fd from when I first joined as we have many first‘s in Cdn.Military History is that Col.Fell and the powers that were at the time flipped a coin as to Air or Engineer.
At the 75th Annivercery of 6Fd I met Col.Fell‘s son (He was a retired Math Prof.from the Eastern States) and asked him about the rumour as he was very knowledgable about 6Fd and he confirmed the rumour.So another bit of military lore wheather true or not

 

[Art Johnson]

Is that an answer Michael? If so which one and how many Battle Honours.

 

[clasper]

I‘ll step in for Michael. The RCR aren‘t even close, with only 28 Battle Honours. The Calgary Highlanders and the Black Watch are up into the forties, but the unit with the most (at least that I‘ve been able to find) is the 48th Highlanders of Canada, with 49 Battle Honours.

http://www3.sympatico.ca/ronkierstead/honours.html

Any other leading questions you‘d like to pose?

 

[Michael OLeary]

Actually, if you want to be very particular, in accordance with the relevant Army Orders for Battle Honours for the First World War (Conditions for the Award of Battle Honours for the Great War 1914-1919, General Orders, 1 Feb 1928), the following should be counted separately (examples taken from the linked 48th list):

Ypres, 1915 (The Battles of Ypres, 1915: 22 Apr - 25 May 1915)

and

Ypres, 1917 (The Battles of Ypres, 1917: 31 Jul - 10 Nov 1917)
__________________________________

Arras, 1917 (The Battles of Arras, 1917: 9 Apr - 4 May 1917)

and

Arras, 1918 (The Second Battle of Arras, 1918: 26 Aug - 3 Sep 1918)
__________________________________

Scarpe, 1917 (Second Battle of the Scarpe, 1917: part of The Battles of Arras, 1917, Canadians involved only in subsidiary attack), and/or (Third Battle of the Scarpe, 1917: 3-4 May 1917)

and

Scarpe, 1918 (Battle of the Scarpe, 1918 (26 - 30 Aug 1918)

_________________________________

The various conventions of listing place names of Battle Honours with years afterwards can easily confuse the issue and the count.

"FRANCE AND FLANDERS 1915-1918" represents a Theatre of War Honour covering general particpation in the theatre during those years. The reference lists only 10 different Theatre Honours.

"YPRES, 1915 & 1917" or, as it may often be written "YPRES, 1915, 1917" actually identifies two separate battles at Ypres in those years.

This, of course calls for reexamination of the count of Battle Honours given by various regiments.


Mike

 

[Art Johnson]

Michael was on to me right away I was hoping he and a few others would have let it pass for awhile. The answer is the 48th Highlanders of Canada with 49.
Mike the Rogue brought up some interesting points and there are some others. The British established the areas that would qualify for certain Battle Honours this did not satisfy the Canadians and they enlarged the areas to satisfy their view of the situations.
The 1st stand of colours of the 48th were presented in 1892 and when they were laid up in 1927 the Battle Honour Passchendael was not emblazoned there on. The 2nd stand which were presented by Lord Byng in 1925 were similarly emblazoned. The official list of Battle Honours was approved by the King in 1928 and the request for the Honour Passchendael had been approved, too late of course for emblazment on the 2nd stand. The 48th were not among the first assauting troops and they were not sure that they would be entitled for the Battle Honour.
In 1959 the 3rd stand with the WW II Honours emblazoned and Passchendael replacing Scarpe 1917 & 1918 were presented by Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II.
Ypres 1915 is also known as the 2nd Battle of Ypres and 1917 the 3rd, the 1st Battle of Ypres took place in 1914 before any Canadian unit other than the PPCLI were in France.
Another interesting item is that only Canadian units were elegible for the Battle Honour Hill 70.

 

[Art Johnson]

ANOTHER QUESTION ABOUT BATTLE HONOURS.

Which Canadian Forces Units were awarded Battle Honours for the Gulf War 1991.

 

[Michael OLeary]

The Wednesday Report
Volume 7, Number 48, December 1, 1993

CF UNITS AWARDED BATTLE HONOUR
The following units will be awarded battle honours for having served in the Gulf and Kuwait as part of the multinational military effort in the Persian Gulf in 1991 in support of U.N. Security Council resolutions: HMCS Athabaskan, HMCS Protecteur, HMCS Terra Nova, 423 Helicopter Anti-Submarine Squadron and 439 Tactical Fighter Squadron. In addition, 416 Tactical Fighter Squadron and 437 Transport Squadron will be awarded an honorary distinction for significantly reinforcing the deployed tactical fighter force which fought in the theatre. The Governor General authorized the creation of the new battle honour in Ottawa on November 10 [1993].

 

[stukirkpatrick]

I‘ll try to jump-start this thread again...

Here is a quite obscure 1812 question ... (or is it?):

What Canadian volunteer was present at both the Battle of Queenston Heights (Brock‘s death) and the battle of the Thames (Tecumseh‘s death) both when he was only 17-18?

he later became Canada‘s first novelist.

?

 

[clasper]

Major John Richardson is known as Canada‘s first novelist. One of his books, "The Canadian Brothers" deals with (among other things) the role of First Nations in the war of 1812. I can‘t comment about his presence in the two battles, but he certainly drew his experience from somewhere.

 

[clasper]

Billy Bishop, with 72 kills, was the greatest ace amongst the allies in WWI. Which other Canadians had at least 50 kills to their credit?

 

[bossi]

Well, Roy Collisaw had 62 "victories", but that included "out of control" and shared victories (by WWII standards, he only would have had 28.5)

Ooops - almost left out Don McLaren with 54.

Billy Barker had 43 aircraft in July 1918, got three more in September and then ... you‘ve GOT to read this to believe it - "On October 27, 1918 Canadian ace William Barker made the Sopwith Snipe famous in a single-handed battle with more than 60 enemy aircraft that earned him the Victoria Cross." - awesome!
Canadian Aces

 

[clasper]

William Barker‘s story is an interesting one. He is Canada‘s most decorated war hero, having won the VC, DSO (and bar), MC (w/ two bars), French Croix de Guerre, two Italian Silver Medals for Valour, and three Mentions-in-Despatches. His VC citation is very impressive sounding, but Wayne Ralph, in his biography "Barker VC", suggests that the citation was somewhat embellished, although he also asserts that the medal was deserved. He also comments in general about the liberal "awarding" of kills (see Collishaw above) but also maintains that the top aces (Richtofen, Bishop, etc.) did not have their totals artificially increased. (I guess only second rate flying aces are capable of telling tall tales )

Anyway, back to the army questions: Who liberated Dieppe?

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Who liberated Dieppe?

2nd Canadian Division.

Naturally!

But tell me this - why did General Crerar get in trouble because of Dieppe‘s liberation?

 

[Gunner]

Wayne Ralph, in his biography "Barker VC", suggests that the citation was somewhat embellished, although he also asserts that the medal was deserved. He also comments in general about the liberal "awarding" of kills (see Collishaw above) but also maintains that the top aces (Richtofen, Bishop, etc.) did not have their totals artificially increased.

Bereton Greenhous, former Director of History and Heritage and editor of the official History of the RCAF (all 4(?) Volumes) discusses the issue of liberal awarding of medals to pilots during WWI and WWII. The air force suffered very high losses (as a result of prewar governments that did not take military spending, organization and equipping seriously... ) and pilots needed motivation and moreover the public needed hero‘s.

He published The Making of Billy Bishop a couple of years ago and it created some controversy as he disputed some feats attributed to Bishop (#‘s of kills and his VC feat). He presented his findings at a Military History Conference in Ottawa and they were very persuasive.

Billy Barker, was perhaps a much more realistic Canadian Hero, but he was not the self-promoter that Billy Bishop was and died in the 1920s (30s?).

 

[Gunner]

why did General Crerar get in trouble because of Dieppe‘s liberation?

Montgomery (pot calling the kettle black) criticizing Crerar for failing to exploit the success at Dieppe?