Racism in Canada (split from A Deeply Fractured US)

[Jarnhamar]

Fascism.
Characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, as well as strong regimentation of society and of the economy.

Bad news for sure.

 

[X Royal]

Social media easily shows we do have racial problems here in Canada and the Forces are not exempt.
I've seen comments from some I've served with that would have never have been openly stated within the service.
But as they are no longer serving they lay on the racist comments.
In no way am I saying it's common but yes we have had our share of racists over the years in both Canada and the Forces.
And not for a second do I think it's completely vanished.

 

[mariomike]

And not for a second do I think it's completely vanished.

No. But, times change. Not sure if people do.

Back in 1972, fresh out of school, I came under the watchful eyes of the "46'ers". Men who had come home from the war.

I have nothing but the highest admiration for them, and it saddened me greatly as I went to their funerals.

Each passing generation was better educated. Did their private attitudes change over the years. Who knows?

But, the words that came out of their mouths became much more "filtered" with the passing of time.

 

[Xylric]

No. But, times change. Not sure if people do.

Back in 1972, fresh out of school, I came under the watchful eyes of the "46'ers". Men who had come home from the war.

I have nothing but the highest admiration for them, and it saddened me greatly as I went to their funerals.

Each passing generation was better educated. Did their private attitudes change over the years. Who knows?

But, the words that came out of their mouths became much more "filtered" with the passing of time.

One of my mentors (whom was a major reference in my DEO application) just had his 70th birthday.

One of the most interesting things he told me was something that he happened to witness. While serving in a field hospital during his time in the USAF, he was witness to a racist's epiphany. This fellow was the great-grandson of a Confederate Officer, and had been raised on the whole "dirty blood" tripe. He gave it up instantly the first moment he had to treat a black soldier simply due to the fact that the sight of this wounded man's blood being the same colour as his own put the lie to everything he had been raised to believe about race. Apparently, after he got back to the States, this former racist went to university, met a girl, and brought his family out of the dark ages by marrying her. Not because she was black, but because he was happy.

People change, but it often takes a clue-by-four. Even then, it's woefully uncommon. I had a hard time believing the story, until photographic evidence was provided to me.

 

[OldSolduer]

One of my mentors (whom was a major reference in my DEO application) just had his 70th birthday.

One of the most interesting things he told me was something that he happened to witness. While serving in a field hospital during his time in the USAF, he was witness to a racist's epiphany. This fellow was the great-grandson of a Confederate Officer, and had been raised on the whole "dirty blood" tripe. He gave it up instantly the first moment he had to treat a black soldier simply due to the fact that the sight of this wounded man's blood being the same colour as his own put the lie to everything he had been raised to believe about race. Apparently, after he got back to the States, this former racist went to university, met a girl, and brought his family out of the dark ages by marrying her. Not because she was black, but because he was happy.

People change, but it often takes a clue-by-four. Even then, it's woefully uncommon. I had a hard time believing the story, until photographic evidence was provided to me.

In order for people to change - willingly - they usually need to undergo a Significant Emotional Event that shifts the attitude.

 

[Xylric]

In order for people to change - willingly - they usually need to undergo a Significant Emotional Event that shifts the attitude.

Exactly! Hence why I like the term "Clue-by-four." It's just as harsh a blow as an SEE.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Invoking something racist like the Indian Act isn't helping either.  Integration within Canadian society is ultimately the end goal, I hope. The reserve system is obviously not working for anyone, the days of them living off their traditional lands is long gone. Being completely reliant on the government in isolated communities is not financially sustainable for the FN communities and doesn't help them move forward. Reconciliation is just a word at this point, they haven't indicated what that means.

Everyone knows the Indian Act needs changing, the problem is what replaces it? Whatever does replace it will likely not make the indigenous people happy or the general public. It will likley spell the end of the political career of the politician that spearheads it and will be vilified by both sides later on. The issue is so large our media is incapable of grasping it and will fan the flames either wilfully or in ignorance. The media currently is incapable of honestly talking about racism. In their messaging racism is only white vs anyone else. When in actual fact thanks to our multi-cultural society, you have many visible minorities displaying racism against other groups. Most of the journalists have little grasp of history or interest in it and/or are afraid to say more for fear of losing job/status/friends/access.

Guilting a chunk of people for the action of their forefathers is counterproductive in the long run, eventually people will have enough of that and will entrench a them vs us attitude, because there is no "winning" with the people slinging crap at them. Nothing the whites do will ever be enough for the people trying to keep the issue alive. You want to defeat "racisim", then teach your kids to treat everyone with respect when they first meet them, teach them history without guilt and get people to together to talk about their family histories. Racism can be reduced to a minor issue by thousands of small acts of kindness everyday. It will never go away, but it can be uncommon.   

 

[Jarnhamar]

So this is a part of the problem IMO.

The RCMP and other police are getting lumped in with the racism conversation in Canada. Why? Well there's a lot of stories of people of colour and the RCMP not jiving very well and the writ large beliefs are that there's systemic racism in our police force.

#1
RCMP Commissioner Brenda Lucki. Assumed office April 16, 2018, she probably has a bit of time in under her belt before that.

Despite being on the job for a couple years now, 2 days ago she "struggled with the definitions of systemic racism". People respond with a heart felt what the fuck? and 2 days later she "knows that systemic racism is part of every institution, the RCMP included".

[ https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/brenda-lucki-systemic-racism-rcmp-1.5610355 ]

So until now she didn't know what systemic racism meant but a little Twitter backlash and problem solved. Now she knows.

Really? The RCMP commissioner didn't know what systemic racism was? Despite, I'm guessing, presiding over a whole bunch of police complaints with people of colour? She didn't think to maybe figure it out before 12 Jun 2020?

#2
RCMP's top officer in Alberta, Deputy Commissioner Curtis Zablocki, says he “doesn't believe that racism is systemic through Canadian policing, I don’t believe it’s systemic through policing in Alberta.”  Twitter backlash, presto chango and all of a sudden he's "walking back his comments."
[ https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/albertas-top-rcmp-officer-admits-systemic-racism-exists-as-lawyers-group-calls-for-his-resignation/ar-BB15pwoo ]

On Friday, Zablocki said he has since had conversations with community and Indigenous leaders, colleagues and other police chiefs as well as researched what systemic racism is and has changed his mind.

“Much of that conversation has centred on racism, how it’s defined and what it means to those affected,” Zablocki said. “These have been conversations that have challenged my perceptions and made it clear that systemic racism does exist in the RCMP.”

Like, really? June 12th 2020, same story. All of a sudden he has an epiphany?  All this time he believed believed the wrong thing but now he knows better, like it's the first he's been exposed to this train of thought?

Why is the RCMP waiting until June 2020 to figure out what racism means?

 

[PuckChaser]

If there's systemic racism in an organization, then they need to start cleaning house from the top down starting with Lucki. Tolerated racism in an organization like the RCMP (or CAF or DND) is a leadership failure and those who tolerate/do nothing in leadership positions to affect change should be held to account.

 

[Brad Sallows]

At least with systemic racism we can identify exactly where it is and what it is, and take concrete measures to remove it.

 

[CBH99]

So this is a part of the problem IMO.

The RCMP and other police are getting lumped in with the racism conversation in Canada. Why? Well there's a lot of stories of people of colour and the RCMP not jiving very well and the writ large beliefs are that there's systemic racism in our police force.

#1
RCMP Commissioner Brenda Lucki. Assumed office April 16, 2018, she probably has a bit of time in under her belt before that.

Despite being on the job for a couple years now, 2 days ago she "struggled with the definitions of systemic racism". People respond with a heart felt what the frig? and 2 days later she "knows that systemic racism is part of every institution, the RCMP included".

[ https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/brenda-lucki-systemic-racism-rcmp-1.5610355 ]

So until now she didn't know what systemic racism meant but a little Twitter backlash and problem solved. Now she knows.

Really? The RCMP commissioner didn't know what systemic racism was? Despite, I'm guessing, presiding over a whole bunch of police complaints with people of colour? She didn't think to maybe figure it out before 12 Jun 2020?

#2
RCMP's top officer in Alberta, Deputy Commissioner Curtis Zablocki, says he “doesn't believe that racism is systemic through Canadian policing, I don’t believe it’s systemic through policing in Alberta.”  Twitter backlash, presto chango and all of a sudden he's "walking back his comments."
[ https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/albertas-top-rcmp-officer-admits-systemic-racism-exists-as-lawyers-group-calls-for-his-resignation/ar-BB15pwoo ]

Like, really? June 12th 2020, same story. All of a sudden he has an epiphany?  All this time he believed believed the wrong thing but now he knows better, like it's the first he's been exposed to this train of thought?

Why is the RCMP waiting until June 2020 to figure out what racism means?

For the record, I agree with you 110%.


I'm going to play devil's advocate here just for a moment -- not in their defense per-se, but maybe being in the positions they are in, they are looking at the situation from a different viewpoint.

Both of these individuals are senior 'managers' (I hate that word when it comes to anything involving public safety...we need leaders, not managers) -- and as such, are given reports and statistics prepared for them by their organizations/divisions.



During the recruiting process, during depot, a variety of mandatory courses - we do everything we can do stomp our racism, encourage diversity, etc etc.  The organization, as they view it, is 'not a racist organization', and while some members may have a bias, the majority of the rank & file are not racist.  Fair enough.

However, the reality on the ground is always different than what one reads in a sanitized report.  Viewpoints can be quite different. 

Members of a police organization & members of the public can view the same situation from very different perspectives, especially if you have predominantly white police officers providing policing services on a native reserve with a high crime rate/drug usage/domestic violence.



I work with a lot of police officers, and I don't know ANY that are genuinely racist.  Sometimes it's easy for people to view an interaction as racist, even if it isn't, just because of the colour dynamics between the officer and the subject.


**That being said, beating up a Chief over an expired license plate seems racist.  If they pulled over an Asian person with an expired plate, for example, I doubt it would have gone down that way after watching the video  :2c:

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I bet if it was a white guy that challenged the cop by getting into a fighting stance, he would have been taken down earlier. I watched the video, despite being outnumbered at the scene, he tried to keep things from getting out of hand, in fact I was highly impressed by the first officers efforts despite clear attempts by the individual to start a fight. The video ran for 6 minutes before the other cop showed just as Cop #1 tried to restrain the individual, causing cop #2 to leap to his aid with likley more than required force. Had cop #2 been there earlier, likley he would not have used that much force. At the end of the day, I bet the Chiefs lawyer is going to tell him to plead as the video does him little favour.

 

[Eaglelord17]

**That being said, beating up a Chief over an expired license plate seems racist.  If they pulled over an Asian person with an expired plate, for example, I doubt it would have gone down that way after watching the video  :2c:

If you watch the entire video (not just the short clips most news organizations are showing), you will see the Chief start out immediately aggressive, yelling, refusing to comply with direction, getting in and out of a vehicle multiple times (which can be a reason to shoot someone dead due to what happened to Deputy Kyle Dinkheller, watch the video if you want to see how some of modern police doctrine has been created), taking up fighting stances, interfering with a arrest, and assaulting a police officer.

I doubt if they pulled over a Asian person it would have gone down that way either, because odds are the Asian person isn't some power crazed chief who believes they are above the law and can go and fight the police.

Did cop #2 use a bit more force than necessary? Yeah he likely did. Did I think it was overtly excessive considering the circumstances? Not particularly.

 

[Halifax Tar]

**That being said, beating up a Chief over an expired license plate seems racist.  If they pulled over an Asian person with an expired plate, for example, I doubt it would have gone down that way after watching the video  :2c:

Only if the beating was racially motivated.  Why cant cops just be @22holes like everyong else ?  Sometimes people are just d!cks.

 

[GAP]

From the video the chief came flying out of the passenger side of the vehicle seeming to be loudly mouthing off, in an aggressive manner the first cop caught his arm and restrained him. the second cop hit him high to do a takedown. I see nothing racist about those actions against an angry aggressive person confronting the cops.

:2c:

 

[Jarnhamar]

Sorry for all the venting I've been doing about this stuff I'll simmer down.  I don't mean to come across as anti-cop or anti-law enforcement if I am. I don't like bullies or people being treated unfairly whether it's police, the courts, the CAF and so on.

If there's systemic racism in an organization, then they need to start cleaning house from the top down starting with Lucki. Tolerated racism in an organization like the RCMP (or CAF or DND) is a leadership failure and those who tolerate/do nothing in leadership positions to affect change should be held to account.

That's what I was trying to say in my probably over the top snarky post above.

I bet if it was a white guy that challenged the cop by getting into a fighting stance, he would have been taken down earlier. I watched the video, despite being outnumbered at the scene, he tried to keep things from getting out of hand, in fact I was highly impressed by the first officers efforts despite clear attempts by the individual to start a fight. The video ran for 6 minutes before the other cop showed just as Cop #1 tried to restrain the individual, causing cop #2 to leap to his aid with likely more than required force. Had cop #2 been there earlier, likley he would not have used that much force. At the end of the day, I bet the Chiefs lawyer is going to tell him to plead as the video does him little favor.

Agree 100%. The video hardly does the chief any favors, he was clearly looking for a fight.  And I agree if it was a white guy he would have been dropped a lot quicker.


Will cops have to overly worry about optics and possibly feel like they need to handle different races differently? Maybe expose themselves to greater risks and dangers because they don't want to deal with the media?

 

[Kat Stevens]

I, through some but not all fault of my own, have had several to quite a few interactions with cops. Some have treated me with respect and politeness, some have been less than respectful and polite, and some have put me in bracelets, most wuffly.  Every one of those reactions has been 100% in response to my actions. I didn't end up in cuffs with a knee in my back because I was or wasn't a certain ethnicity, it's because I was being an asshole and deserved it.

 

[PuckChaser]

Will cops have to overly worry about optics and possibly feel like they need to handle different races differently? Maybe expose themselves to greater risks and dangers because they don't want to deal with the media?

If it goes that way, we'll actually create systemic racism instead of fixing it. The problem is that we automatically jump to worse case scenario of "racist power-tripping cop" instead of actually letting SIU/Civilian Complains Commission do their jobs and investigate. If the incident is racial motivated, badges should be pulled. A lot of these incidents look more like terrible training/certification processes than actual racially motivated assaults.

 

[LittleBlackDevil]

**That being said, beating up a Chief over an expired license plate seems racist.  If they pulled over an Asian person with an expired plate, for example, I doubt it would have gone down that way after watching the video  :2c:

Did you watch the whole video?

Because if you watch from the beginning, the chief is berating the the first officer, takes off his jacket and angrily throws it to the ground and challenges the officer to fight, taking up a clear fighting stance. He repeatedly tried to provoke the officer and threatens him, ignores requests to calm down, and gets in-and-out of the vehicle a couple times. It's only after several minutes of this nonsense that the second officer arrives obscene and tackles are chief who then continues his aggressive and violent antics, thrashing around and actively resisting as the officers attempt to put handcuffs on him.

In my experience as a defence lawyer who's reviewed hundreds of arrests, if a white guy was that aggressive with an officer he would have been taken down a lot earlier and a lot harder.

The chief didn't get beaten up over an expired plate, he got beaten up because he wanted to fight the police and after several minutes of attempted de-escalation, he got what he was demanding.

 

[Remius]

How many times has he been pulled over.  Or harassed or whatever.  How long before someone finally snaps.

That being said, the video on its own does not seem to paint the whole picture.  To be honest the Chief looked like he was asking for it with his aggressive posture and behaviour.

One has to wonder why things escalate the way they do over trivial things like an expired plate.