RCMP Commissioner Lucki Stepping Down

[mariomike]

Why the difference between what the law says and what the Toronto Police require?

Good question.

Thank-you, Lenaitch for the explanation. Sounds a little bit political.

the current Conservatives were pretty keen on reversing just about everything Liberal that they could

With a mayoral election coming up, I wonder if the City of Toronto would ever consider something similar to the City of New York hiring model?

Police Cadets - NYPD

www.nyc.gov

To enroll in the Cadet Corps, a candidate must:

• Be 18-33 years of age
• Be a New York City resident
• Be a full-time college student with no more than 100 credits at the time of hire.
• Be enrolled in an accredited associate's or bachelor's degree program within the 5 boroughs of NYC, Nassau or Westchester Counties.
• Have a minimum G.P.A. of 2.0 and earn a minimum of 12 credits per semester.
• Be free of any felony convictions
• Have U.S. Citizenship within two years of hire and/or graduation of college - whichever comes first

To remain in the Cadet Corps, a cadet must:

• Maintain the 2.0 GPA and earn a minimum of 12 credits per semester in a Associates's or Bachelor's degree program at an accredited college
• Take the first available promotional police officer's exam while you are a cadet
• Attend monthly training every third Saturday of each month at the Police Academy
• Work full-time during the summer months
• Have your US Citizenship within two years of being hired or upon graduation from college, whichever comes first

Tuition Assistance: Receive up to $20,000 in tuition assistance ($2,500 to $5,000 per semester, up to 4 semesters). Cadets who take advantage of this program will not have to re-pay the amount after completing 2 years of service as a New York City Police Officer.
Great Pay: We offer $16.79 hourly wage.
Flexible Work Schedule: We offer full-time summer employment with a flexible work schedule during the school year – school comes first!
Promotional Opportunity: When you take the police officer's exam it will be considered a promotional exam.

The highlighted part is the "nice thing".

ie: It's a Closed / Internal hiring, versus Open / External "off the street" hiring.

( FDNY Fire and EMS have similar Cadet programs, with the same promotional hiring. )

If applying for highly competive jobs, unless you have a "Godfather" on the inside, Closed / Internal / Promotional ( whatever you want to call it ) gives the applicant a better chance than External / Open / off the street.

No, this is not like the CAF cadet program.

 

[lenaitch]

Thank-you, Lenaitch for the explanation. Sounds political.



With a mayoral election coming up, I wonder if Toronto would ever consider the City of New York hiring model?

Police Cadets - NYPD

www.nyc.gov

To enroll in the Cadet Corps, a candidate must:

• Be 18-33 years of age
• Be a New York City resident
• Be a full-time college student with no more than 100 credits at the time of hire.
• Be enrolled in an accredited associate's or bachelor's degree program within the 5 boroughs of NYC, Nassau or Westchester Counties.
• Have a minimum G.P.A. of 2.0 and earn a minimum of 12 credits per semester.
• Be free of any felony convictions
• Have U.S. Citizenship within two years of hire and/or graduation of college - whichever comes first

To remain in the Cadet Corps, a cadet must:

• Maintain the 2.0 GPA and earn a minimum of 12 credits per semester in a Associates's or Bachelor's degree program at an accredited college
• Take the first available promotional police officer's exam while you are a cadet
• Attend monthly training every third Saturday of each month at the Police Academy
• Work full-time during the summer months
• Have your US Citizenship within two years of being hired or upon graduation from college, whichever comes first

Tuition Assistance: Receive up to $20,000 in tuition assistance ($2,500 to $5,000 per semester, up to 4 semesters). Cadets who take advantage of this program will not have to re-pay the amount after completing 2 years of service as a New York City Police Officer.
Great Pay: We offer $16.79 hourly wage.
Flexible Work Schedule: We offer full-time summer employment with a flexible work schedule during the school year – school comes first!
Promotional Opportunity: When you take the police officer's exam it will be considered a promotional exam.

The highlighted part is the "nice thing".

ie: It's a Closed / Internal hiring, versus Open / External "off the street" hiring.

( FDNY Fire and EMS have similar Cadet programs, with the same promotional hiring. )

No, this is not like the CAF cadet program.

The concept of 'cadet' and 'auxiliary' in Canada (and least in Ontario) is quite a bit different than in the US. I suppose TPS could try to have higher minimum requirements than the Act but, if nothing else, they would likely bleed candidates to just about every other Ontario service.

The residency requirement seems to run afoul of the Charter but I'm not sure it has actually ever been challenged.

The curious thing about OPC charging tuition is that is has never been listed as a CRA-recognized educational institution, so applicants couldn't claim it against their income tax. I know the OPPA Credit Union started a loan program but I don't know how common something like that is with other services.

 

[mariomike]

The concept of 'cadet' and 'auxiliary' in Canada (and least in Ontario) is quite a bit different than in the US. I suppose TPS could try to have higher minimum requirements than the Act but, if nothing else, they would likely bleed candidates to just about every other Ontario service.

The NYC model sounds more like an internship.

Police Cadets - NYPD

www.nyc.gov

I don't believe the Cadet programs are very popular with their unions.

A new fire cadet program being developed by the FDNY could help move minorities to the head of the hiring line - but not without objection from the firefighters' union, the Daily News has learned.

The residency requirement seems to run afoul of the Charter but I'm not sure it has actually ever been challenged.

They had it when I hired on. Glad they did too, no telling where I would have ended up.

 

[brihard]

You're the SME here, and I will admit my bias in my belief that we over value the necessity of a post secondary education for many professions.

Perhaps this is part of our general over expectation of what services a LEA should provide ?

I won't claim to be a SME... I'm one dude with one opinion. For context on what informs my opinion, I've got about a decade on the job, one university degree done and nearly finished another. I started on patrol, and now I work plainclothes major crimes, with a partial focus on writing court authorizations like various warrants. There are roles within policing more academically oriented than what I do, and certainly some less.

There are many different facets of policing. A lot of it is simply responding to stupid crap humans do. This can be fast, exciting, kinetic, and not require a whole lot of academic smarts... But, few jobs in policing will be exclusively this. Even on patrol, responding officers might end up dealing with the critical first few minutes of identifying and arresting suspects, ensuring they're given their rights, securing and documenting evidence, conducting search incidental to arrest... A whole lot can happen in that first bit of time before detectives or higher supervisors get there. Those very early actions and choices can have a huge impact on the success of prosecutions for murder, or drug trafficking, or what have you. There's a lot of legalities that have to be done right at every step of what we do.

And then there are the soft skills. Police spend most of their time dealing with people in situations that DON'T go kinetic. The best police will be those who can build human connections and relationships, can keep themselves possessed of perspectives outside of policing, and can understand that every call they show up to is taking place in some context or system larger than just 'bad man do bad thing'. I think that having broader perspectives, more openness of mind, and good critical thinking are essential attributes for the kinds of people we want entering the profession.

Nothing guarantees those things. There's no degree or diploma I'm aware of that ensures you'll have them. But, I think that postsecondary education (including training in trades and other practically applied disciplines) is a bit of a proxy filter to help make it more likely on average that your applicants have some greater curiosity, desire to learn and desire to self improve.

Personally, I don't think that expecting at least some degree of education past high school is a bad thing. I'd be fine with exceptions on a case by case basis if really compelling candidates walk in with maturity and experience gained elsewhere.

I think that some of our difficulty in recruiting across the profession right now come from public perception about what we do and who we are. I think that a visible lowering (or walking back) of standards either currently or imminently in place will not help this. I think that anything that contributes to publicly perceived increase in our professionalization is good for us.

But, maybe things are so truly bad across the board in Ontario that this is a necessary step for the time being. I'm not gonna pretend I've put any real research into this... It's just what I think form what I've seen.

 

[Booter]

I’ve yet to meet an educated cop whose education did anything except make them think they should be excused from the heavy lifting.

I do appreciate that there is a need for specialized educated cops, and my generalization isn’t adding any meat to the discussion .

We need First Nations officers everywhere in the country. Its literally just creating new systemic racism issues because they have lower rates of post secondary. Some studies showing single digits.

 

[brihard]

I’ve yet to meet an educated cop whose education did anything except make them think they should be excused from the heavy lifting.

I do appreciate that there is a need for specialized educated cops, and my generalization isn’t adding any meat to the discussion .

Offhand I can think of very few I’ve seen join in my time in without at least a two year college diploma. Some, but few. It’s been tough to be competitive without at least some paper on the wall.

 

[mariomike]

I think this is a case a good detective would really like to sink their teeth into,

$20M worth of gold and other 'high value' items stolen from Pearson airport, police say​

No arrests made, police unsure if items are still in the country​

 

[Kat Stevens]

That was one of Sir Robert Peel's main foundations of requirements of police constables. I believe the quote goes;
" There are only so many Starbucks in town, we need to give all these kids with degrees something to do."

 

[Booter]

Offhand I can think of very few I’ve seen join in my time in without at least a two year college diploma. Some, but few. It’s been tough to be competitive without at least some paper on the wall.

I have quite a bit now. I didn’t when I applied. Having trained thousands of officers now I don’t see a difference. The oft quoted study of “educated cops use less force” is also removed from context.

Your work probably should have an education. So should LAST teams etc. I just want people that will work shift work and tell the truth

I don’t even see a difference in their ability to write- some of the absolute worst written communicators I’ve had have degrees. it just showed me that the general “have a degree” isn’t super useful.

That said- YMMV because that’s all anecdotal

 

[BrianWL]

recruiters are fighting over a limited pool of people with post secondary. not enough of em. plus few coming in want to work in patrol for one minute longer than they have to. comparing themselves to private sector, having a heavy amount of education means your going to move up the corporate ladder. not so in policing. i know good cops with post bachelor degrees who have never been promoted and have been pushing a cruiser for many moons. also know some who have done quite well with more education - and also some who had a very basic post secondary CV. in policing its what you do on the job and (sadly) how well you self promote and having good political skills can also be an asset (even more sadly). focusing hiring efforts on including people who come with grade 12 and life skills will (hopefully) attract people that aren't going to have a hissy fit working nights patrol and are not going to go off on stress leave if not getting promoted (most of us retire as constables). I think this is the thrust.........

 

[mariomike]

I just want people that will work shift work and tell the truth

About the shift work. Is there any way to get off it? I got a good schedule, when I had enough seniority.

Mon, Tues, Weds, Thurs, Fri. 0700 - 1900
Mon, Tues, Weds, 0700 - 1900
Thurs, Fri 0700 - 1900

Cost me $2.08 per hour, but it was worth it.

 

[BrianWL]

About the shift work. Is there any way to get off it? I got a good schedule, when I had enough seniority.

Mon, Tues, Weds, Thurs, Fri. 0700 - 1900
Mon, Tues, Weds, 0700 - 1900
Thurs, Fri 0700 - 1900

Cost me $2.08 per hour, but it was worth it.

depends on where you work, what the collective agreement stipulates as far as shift scheduling. my job - seniority means zero in what shift you get.....12 hours - 2 days, then 2 nights, 4 off no matter if your day one or day last. with some units on 8 or 10 hour schedules, depending on what they do.

 

[BrianWL]

Good question.

Thank-you, Lenaitch for the explanation. Sounds a little bit political.



With a mayoral election coming up, I wonder if the City of Toronto would ever consider something similar to the City of New York hiring model?

Police Cadets - NYPD

www.nyc.gov

To enroll in the Cadet Corps, a candidate must:

• Be 18-33 years of age
• Be a New York City resident
• Be a full-time college student with no more than 100 credits at the time of hire.
• Be enrolled in an accredited associate's or bachelor's degree program within the 5 boroughs of NYC, Nassau or Westchester Counties.
• Have a minimum G.P.A. of 2.0 and earn a minimum of 12 credits per semester.
• Be free of any felony convictions
• Have U.S. Citizenship within two years of hire and/or graduation of college - whichever comes first

To remain in the Cadet Corps, a cadet must:

• Maintain the 2.0 GPA and earn a minimum of 12 credits per semester in a Associates's or Bachelor's degree program at an accredited college
• Take the first available promotional police officer's exam while you are a cadet
• Attend monthly training every third Saturday of each month at the Police Academy
• Work full-time during the summer months
• Have your US Citizenship within two years of being hired or upon graduation from college, whichever comes first

Tuition Assistance: Receive up to $20,000 in tuition assistance ($2,500 to $5,000 per semester, up to 4 semesters). Cadets who take advantage of this program will not have to re-pay the amount after completing 2 years of service as a New York City Police Officer.
Great Pay: We offer $16.79 hourly wage.
Flexible Work Schedule: We offer full-time summer employment with a flexible work schedule during the school year – school comes first!
Promotional Opportunity: When you take the police officer's exam it will be considered a promotional exam.

The highlighted part is the "nice thing".

ie: It's a Closed / Internal hiring, versus Open / External "off the street" hiring.

( FDNY Fire and EMS have similar Cadet programs, with the same promotional hiring. )

If applying for highly competive jobs, unless you have a "Godfather" on the inside, Closed / Internal / Promotional ( whatever you want to call it ) gives the applicant a better chance than External / Open / off the street.

No, this is not like the CAF cadet program.

free of felony convictions. love it. so you can have some convictions, just not for anything more serious than:

NYC misdemeanor list from Wiki -

• Prostitution.
• Petty theft.
• Disorderly conduct.
• Drug possession.
• Simple assault.
• Trespassing.
• Public intoxication.
• Vandalism.

 

[brihard]

About the shift work. Is there any way to get off it? I got a good schedule, when I had enough seniority.

Mon, Tues, Weds, Thurs, Fri. 0700 - 1900
Mon, Tues, Weds, 0700 - 1900
Thurs, Fri 0700 - 1900

Cost me $2.08 per hour, but it was worth it.

Totally depends. If you're on patrol, I don't know of any police services without shift work, and I don't know of any Canadian services that have a system where you can bid for exclusively day shifts and others are stuck with exclusively nights. I'm not saying thsoe don't exist, but I'm only familiar with rotations.

Most investigative units will work steadier hours, albeit being called out as needed. Many units work normal Mon-Fri office hours; I'm in that position right now, it simply makes sense most days. Though if we have to hit the road for overnight surveillance, or to execute a search warrant, or work extended hours to get a warrant authorization written, or get a statement from someone who's only available at certain times, then so be it, we do the work. Getting into a unit like that is usually some combination of merit and having some time in, but is seldom if ever strictly seniority based.

 

[dapaterson]

free of felony convictions. love it. so you can have some convictions, just not for anything more serious than:

NYC misdemeanor list from Wiki -

• Prostitution.
• Petty theft.
• Disorderly conduct.
• Drug possession.
• Simple assault.
• Trespassing.
• Public intoxication.
• Vandalism.

All at once?

 

[mariomike]

Getting into a unit like that is usually some combination of merit and having some time in, but is seldom if ever strictly seniority based.

We had some "Relative Ability" positions. Others were "Senior Qualified".

free of felony convictions. love it. so you can have some convictions, just not for anything more serious than:

The emergency sevices unions aren't really on-board with Cadet programs.

EXCLUSIVE: FDNY cadet diversity plan ripped by firefighters' union

New program could help move minorities to the head of the hiring line - but not without objection from the firefighters' union,

www.nydailynews.com

https://twitter.com/x/status/1650852235671134209

After seeing the above post, as a resident, with an interest in emergency services, I was curious if candidates in the upcoming mayoral election have an opinion on the subject of recruitment.

 

[lenaitch]

Totally depends. If you're on patrol, I don't know of any police services without shift work, and I don't know of any Canadian services that have a system where you can bid for exclusively day shifts and others are stuck with exclusively nights. I'm not saying thsoe don't exist, but I'm only familiar with rotations.

Most investigative units will work steadier hours, albeit being called out as needed. Many units work normal Mon-Fri office hours; I'm in that position right now, it simply makes sense most days. Though if we have to hit the road for overnight surveillance, or to execute a search warrant, or work extended hours to get a warrant authorization written, or get a statement from someone who's only available at certain times, then so be it, we do the work. Getting into a unit like that is usually some combination of merit and having some time in, but is seldom if ever strictly seniority based.

Yup, same here when I was working. Generally 0800-1600 but always subject to what's going on. Some units, like major fraud, tend to be more 'civilized' in their demands; bikes, guns, homicides, and the support teams like surveillance, interception, etc., not so much. They gave me a car, a pager (remember those?), later a cel-phone and the right to call me 24/7. With a deployed service, the additional layer is, depending on the unit and the assignment, living out of a suitcase for extended periods of time.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

a pager (remember those?)

Current generation reading that:

My generation reading that:

 

[mariomike]

That sounds interesting. We were just numbers. You could work your entire career, and many did, same 12-hour schedule, station and partner. Nothing ever changed.

 

[Halifax Tar]

All at once?

Thats our night out when you come to Halifax! James Ready and Pizza Corner lol