• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

RCMP First Contract

Eaglelord17

Sr. Member
Reaction score
111
Points
480
Eaglelord17, thinking a bit more about what you said. Specifically about what was called "giving the taxpayers a bang for their buck".

Productivity was calculated as Unit Hour Utilization. That's the formula used by "High Performance" urban systems.
( UHU = the number of runs divided by the total number of unit hours in the measurement interval ).

Metro Police may use their own formula to measure productivity. Or, they may use the same.

It would be interesting to compare productivity stats over the years to what they are now.

With Metro Police, I think their big change came with the introduction of the two-man car ( as it was called back then ) in 1976.
Personally I am a huge fan of two man per car policing. I am also a fan of having more police. Part of that is if your paying a bit less for the cops salary you can afford more cops or better equipment for them to use for the same price. The CAF runs into a similar problem where part of the reason we don't have equipment is the amount of money spent on the troops.

The public service, at multiple levels, generates outcomes (based on a democratic approach that most within Canada agree to/have come to expect) like roads, education, health care, water, power, and sewer. If you don't like that approach, you have several options available to you. I also want good value for MY tax dollars. You can bitch all you want, but you still likely have it pretty good. Flailing at gov't jobs and their compensation is futile. In the early 90's, I made half of what a GM worker in Oshawa earned. I didn't attack/criticize GM, it was reality.
Have I ever said we should do away with the public sector? I know what it is there for and I also know right now the government is more involved than I would like it to be in the lives of its citizens.

I want more equality between the public sector and private sector, if you have a issue with that concept it might be because you are the one on the higher end. Here is a dose of reality about the lives of many Canadians.

In the private sector, many don't get paid vacation and are limited to 2 weeks at most. Many don't have a pension, or if they are fortunate enough to have a pension they are pretty much all defined contribution, not benefit. A easy example being mine which is better than most, will let me retire at 65 with about 36k a year income from a back breaking, body destroying, shift work, cancer causing job. So my wages might seem higher than some, but when you factor in the amount I have to save for my own retirement, I really am not ahead at all. I suppose the only good thing being I likely won't live as long into retirement to burn though that money and be left poor.

I do have it pretty good in many ways, but there is a lot I don't have and can never expect to have in the private sector. There are many more in much worse situations than me who bust there asses off for next to nothing as well. I also happen to be in a career which is in extreme demand at the moment, mainly driven by the poor quality of some of the services provided by the public service. If our education system was better the demand that exists for people skilled in my trades wouldn't be nearly as high.
 

Good2Golf

Moderator
Staff member
Directing Staff
Subscriber
Mentor
Reaction score
2,031
Points
1,160
Personally I am a huge fan of two man per car policing. I am also a fan of having more police. Part of that is if your paying a bit less for the cops salary you can afford more cops or better equipment for them to use for the same price. The CAF runs into a similar problem where part of the reason we don't have equipment is the amount of money spent on the troops.

How about base community safety on teams of 3 security guards with well-equipped utility belts cruising in a minivan? That’d be even better value than two constables!
 

dapaterson

Army.ca Relic
Subscriber
Donor
Reaction score
1,825
Points
890
Season 4 Story GIF by The Simpsons
 

Colin Parkinson

Army.ca Legend
Reaction score
1,385
Points
940
Personally I am a huge fan of two man per car policing. I am also a fan of having more police. Part of that is if your paying a bit less for the cops salary you can afford more cops or better equipment for them to use for the same price. The CAF runs into a similar problem where part of the reason we don't have equipment is the amount of money spent on the troops.


Have I ever said we should do away with the public sector? I know what it is there for and I also know right now the government is more involved than I would like it to be in the lives of its citizens.

I want more equality between the public sector and private sector, if you have a issue with that concept it might be because you are the one on the higher end. Here is a dose of reality about the lives of many Canadians.

In the private sector, many don't get paid vacation and are limited to 2 weeks at most. Many don't have a pension, or if they are fortunate enough to have a pension they are pretty much all defined contribution, not benefit. A easy example being mine which is better than most, will let me retire at 65 with about 36k a year income from a back breaking, body destroying, shift work, cancer causing job. So my wages might seem higher than some, but when you factor in the amount I have to save for my own retirement, I really am not ahead at all. I suppose the only good thing being I likely won't live as long into retirement to burn though that money and be left poor.

I do have it pretty good in many ways, but there is a lot I don't have and can never expect to have in the private sector. There are many more in much worse situations than me who bust there asses off for next to nothing as well. I also happen to be in a career which is in extreme demand at the moment, mainly driven by the poor quality of some of the services provided by the public service. If our education system was better the demand that exists for people skilled in my trades wouldn't be nearly as high.
Particularly in the smaller towns, a lot of the business owners had a spouse that worked in government. It was that paycheck that kept the family and the businesses going through rough patches or seasonal down turns. This either-or situation does not exist as cleanly as you think. We also had a lot of technical people, who want job/life stability and took a pay cut to come work for the government. I personally think you get a much better Public Service when you have a substantial number of people who have worked in the private sector as well.
 

lenaitch

Sr. Member
Reaction score
342
Points
810
How about base community safety on teams of 3 security guards with well-equipped utility belts cruising in a minivan? That’d be even better value than two constables!
Private security supplemental patrols have been considered in a couple of towns I am familiar with and rejected every time. They can be 'eyes and ears', but can only arrest 'find committing' (criminal), have virtually no enforcement authority and, even when they do effect an arrest, must turn them over to the police, who might not be available because that was the goal in the first place.

Private security in Ontario has very low qualification and training standards and the potential outfall of that would be the town, being the contracted employer, would share any civil liability. Private security are not public accountable.
 

Good2Golf

Moderator
Staff member
Directing Staff
Subscriber
Mentor
Reaction score
2,031
Points
1,160
Lenaitch, I forgot to add an eye-roll emoji to my comment in response to Eaglelord17’s solution to all things LE, ie. Pay cops less and double them up in cars.
 

Haggis

Army.ca Veteran
Reaction score
607
Points
910
Private security are not public accountable.
But they are criminally/civilly liable collectively at the corporate level (third-party insurance) and individually as private citizens. I doubt any community would directly indemnify a private security provider doing patrols of public spaces. That doesn't mean a wronged party would not/could not bring suit against the community.
 

Booter

New Member
Subscriber
Reaction score
35
Points
330
Many moons ago, there was a movement afoot to create tiered policing. It’s still there but the beast is different.

there was levels of enforcement and special or community Constables that had restricted authority. They would take care of the lower priority things and did traffic enforcement.

in 2005 they were making 20 bucks an hour as part timers and about 60 grand as full on municipal employees.

they are all pushing a hundred grand now too. They tied raises to the revenue they generated, and that they were doing risky work like traffic cops,

now, even though they are the same price as a police officer they are popular because they write tickets predominately, and they are more easily produced.

they are absolutely valuable members of the team. But the “cost savings” of the tiered system didn’t last long.

meanwhile, armed conservation officers in Manitoba with education can’t bust through the 65g ceiling
 

lenaitch

Sr. Member
Reaction score
342
Points
810
Many moons ago, there was a movement afoot to create tiered policing. It’s still there but the beast is different.

there was levels of enforcement and special or community Constables that had restricted authority. They would take care of the lower priority things and did traffic enforcement.

in 2005 they were making 20 bucks an hour as part timers and about 60 grand as full on municipal employees.

they are all pushing a hundred grand now too. They tied raises to the revenue they generated, and that they were doing risky work like traffic cops,

now, even though they are the same price as a police officer they are popular because they write tickets predominately, and they are more easily produced.

they are absolutely valuable members of the team. But the “cost savings” of the tiered system didn’t last long.

meanwhile, armed conservation officers in Manitoba with education can’t bust through the 65g ceiling

Tiered policing, if it works at all, could potentially work better in large urban areas, but certainly not in more sparsely-staffed deployed areas, where silos of ones and twos would be running around looking after their particularly area of authority. The idea of 'traffic wardens' was floated in Toronto a while back until it was determined that they wouldn't have the authority to stop vehicles, which turned out to be pretty much the authority of parking control officers, which they already have.

Traffic enforcement is often portrayed as the 'no brains/no risk' segment of policing, but history has shown us that the 'routine traffic stop' can be a very deadly encounter.

I share your frustration with conservation officers. Although I think in Ontario they are in the $67-85K range, I don't think I've worked with a group that is more particularly dedicated to their craft, certainly far beyond the support they get from their employer.
 

brihard

Army.ca Fixture
Mentor
Reaction score
1,715
Points
890
Just as a bit of followup, the contract, predictably, was ratified with overwhelming approval today. There should be ink on paper between the Union and Treasury Board this week. At this point it’s a done deal.
 

Colin Parkinson

Army.ca Legend
Reaction score
1,385
Points
940
Many moons ago, there was a movement afoot to create tiered policing. It’s still there but the beast is different.

there was levels of enforcement and special or community Constables that had restricted authority. They would take care of the lower priority things and did traffic enforcement.

in 2005 they were making 20 bucks an hour as part timers and about 60 grand as full on municipal employees.

they are all pushing a hundred grand now too. They tied raises to the revenue they generated, and that they were doing risky work like traffic cops,

now, even though they are the same price as a police officer they are popular because they write tickets predominately, and they are more easily produced.

they are absolutely valuable members of the team. But the “cost savings” of the tiered system didn’t last long.

meanwhile, armed conservation officers in Manitoba with education can’t bust through the 65g ceiling
It's not much better for Fish Cops or Environment Canada Enforcement team
 

lenaitch

Sr. Member
Reaction score
342
Points
810
It's not much better for Fish Cops or Environment Canada Enforcement team
It's probably the same across the board for most regulatory enforcement personnel (C/O, Environment, Highway Carrier, etc.) because they are such a small part of their ministry or department which isn't focused on enforcement or public safety and their managers are often bureaucrats with no background in enforcement.
 

RedFive

Jr. Member
Reaction score
48
Points
380
I would imagine they also have in-house dispatching as well.

this is super interesting. Thank you

they distilled it into priorities- “priority 1 calls”. Which is, I suppose, is the real “emergency work” so that makes sense.
Priority 1 is immediate dispatch to multiple cars no matter what else is going on, Priority 2 is next available member(s) (taking precedent over things like lunch/bathroom/coffee breaks etc. Literally the next member to come available, and if its busy enough, we pull off of an already dispatched priority 2 or 3), priority 3 is we'll attend when able and priority 4 is we're not attending and its either a phone follow-up or the call taker tells the person its a report only.

Yes we have out own OCC but PRIME-BC can generate these stats relatively easy for somebody trained to do so.
 

mariomike

Moderator
Staff member
Directing Staff
Subscriber
Mentor
Reaction score
327
Points
1,130
Does the RCMP have Tiered Response?

It was implemented in the early 1980's with the introduction of 9-1-1 in large urban areas of Canada and the U.S.A..

Not sure if they had it in less populated areas?
 

RedFive

Jr. Member
Reaction score
48
Points
380
Does the RCMP have Tiered Response?

It was implemented in the early 1980's with the introduction of 9-1-1 in large urban areas of Canada and the U.S.A..

Not sure if they had it in less populated areas?
We may do it I'm not familiar with the term however. Also I can only speak to one of the many Detachments.
 

Booter

New Member
Subscriber
Reaction score
35
Points
330
Does the RCMP have Tiered Response?

It was implemented in the early 1980's with the introduction of 9-1-1 in large urban areas of Canada and the U.S.A..

Not sure if they had it in less populated areas?
It really depends on what you mean. There are probably several systems- for example, the Critical Incident Program has different response levels from tactical "packets" of small teams all the way up to full CIP deployment with multiple types of officers.
 

mariomike

Moderator
Staff member
Directing Staff
Subscriber
Mentor
Reaction score
327
Points
1,130
It really depends on what you mean.
Tiered Response, as I understood it back then, was the process of a co-ordinated response of the three emergency services to various types of emergency incidents that occur within a community. Tiered response, or the response of two or more of the three emergency services to the same incident is not restricted to only “medical” emergencies, as the protocols are designed to cover a broad spectrum of situations within the overall realm of public safety.

Prior to the early 1980's, each the three emergency services had their own separate telephone numbers.

After the implementation of 9-1-1, the services made a Tiered Response policy.

The primary intent was of our tiered response model was to ensure that in the first instance the most appropriate emergency service was notified of an incident. In situations where time, circumstance and/or the nature of the incident warranted, the response of the other emergency services would occur. Based on the type of incident, the first notification would be to the “primary agency”, with other agencies or emergency services notified if required. As an example, a structure fire would result in the initial notification of the Fire Services as the primary agency, with Police and Ambulance notified as the secondary agency responder. The primary purpose of the fire services in this case is to provide immediate fire suppression and victim rescue, with Police providing investigative and crowd management and Ambulance providing medical care for either the victims and/or fire-fighters. In this example, all three agencies respond and each have a specific and vital role. There are many examples unrelated to medical responses that result in the notification and response of all three agencies.

In the case of medical emergencies, not all of the 9-1-1 medical calls result in a tiered response involving the Fire and Police Services. When a life threatening medical emergency is identified through the Ambulance call triage system, it is important to ensure that immediate intervention occurs. The tiered response system is designed to ensure notification of the Fire Services and in some cases the Police Service. While the primary agency is Ambulance, time factors associated with the medical emergency warrants the rapid response of the Fire Services and in certain cases the Police to provide immediate first response medical intervention.

For example. motor vehicle collisions on the Don Valley Parkway, the Gardner Expressway and the 400 series highways. While appropriate notification protocols had been in place prior to the implementation of 9-1-1, they were updated and strengthened to reflect an improved level of response. In these cases there is no duplication of services due to the specific nature of the incident and the need for the call is classified as potentially life threatening.

As I said, maybe it was only in larger urban areas. I've been retired for so long now that it has possibly gone the way of the Macarena.

Thank-you for your reply.
 

Booter

New Member
Subscriber
Reaction score
35
Points
330
Tiered Response, as I understood it back then, was the process of a co-ordinated response of the three emergency services to various types of emergency incidents that occur within a community. Tiered response, or the response of two or more of the three emergency services to the same incident is not restricted to only “medical” emergencies, as the protocols are designed to cover a broad spectrum of situations within the overall realm of public safety.

Prior to the early 1980's, each the three emergency services had their own separate telephone numbers.

After the implementation of 9-1-1, the services made a Tiered Response policy.

The primary intent was of our tiered response model was to ensure that in the first instance the most appropriate emergency service was notified of an incident. In situations where time, circumstance and/or the nature of the incident warranted, the response of the other emergency services would occur. Based on the type of incident, the first notification would be to the “primary agency”, with other agencies or emergency services notified if required. As an example, a structure fire would result in the initial notification of the Fire Services as the primary agency, with Police and Ambulance notified as the secondary agency responder. The primary purpose of the fire services in this case is to provide immediate fire suppression and victim rescue, with Police providing investigative and crowd management and Ambulance providing medical care for either the victims and/or fire-fighters. In this example, all three agencies respond and each have a specific and vital role. There are many examples unrelated to medical responses that result in the notification and response of all three agencies.

In the case of medical emergencies, not all of the 9-1-1 medical calls result in a tiered response involving the Fire and Police Services. When a life threatening medical emergency is identified through the Ambulance call triage system, it is important to ensure that immediate intervention occurs. The tiered response system is designed to ensure notification of the Fire Services and in some cases the Police Service. While the primary agency is Ambulance, time factors associated with the medical emergency warrants the rapid response of the Fire Services and in certain cases the Police to provide immediate first response medical intervention.

For example. motor vehicle collisions on the Don Valley Parkway, the Gardner Expressway and the 400 series highways. While appropriate notification protocols had been in place prior to the implementation of 9-1-1, they were updated and strengthened to reflect an improved level of response. In these cases there is no duplication of services due to the specific nature of the incident and the need for the call is classified as potentially life threatening.

As I said, maybe it was only in larger urban areas. I've been retired for so long now that it has possibly gone the way of the Macarena.

Thank-you for your reply.
In the city I was in we had something similar for dispatching, in the boondocks however, - generally a call comes into one of the emergency branches and after hearing the details the officer will request the call get dispatched again across to fire or EMS. I have had rerouted dispatch requests to see if police were closer or capable of arriving sooner. Very infrequent- and I believe the area was about 200km's across with very sparse manning of any service.
 

RedFive

Jr. Member
Reaction score
48
Points
380
I can provide an example from a large city centre.

We work very closely with our friends at the BC Ambulance Service and Surrey Fire Service. The overwhelming majority of people do not know what kind of emergency services they need, and so the three dispatch centres (one each for Police, Ambulance and Fire/City Bylaws) will often arrange a joint response or downstream the call to the appropriate service. The employees on the street are aware other services are en route, on scene, or aware and monitoring but it is not on us (the employee on the road) to arrange for other services to attend.

The recent reality of the system is that the BCAS is desperately understaffed and run by incompetents (Give THIS a read...) and so downstreams everything they can that isn't immediately life threatening. We will often wait hours for them to attend to other calls, usually the ones they downstreamed to us in the first place on the hope we could make it go away. The Fire service will also often call for Police attendance and pop smoke as soon as they arrive, with a wishy washy "we need to be in service", "its shift change", "you don't need all four of us and the truck for this" or some other excuse to leave the four car pileup on a single Police officer.

I will point out that this is for routine operations, and this kind of stuff doesn't happen in your high priority, life threatening situations. Fire and Ambulance may wait for Police to make a scene safe in certain scenarios, but they will be staged just around the corner and ready to move in as soon as requested in those kinds of situations.

EDIT TO ADD:

I work in a jurisdiction where these kinds of services are professional, full time and readily available. There are part of this Province and Country where that is not the case at all.
 

Colin Parkinson

Army.ca Legend
Reaction score
1,385
Points
940
I remember the good old days when the fire departments and EHS in the Lower mainland were having a spat about firemen providing first aid which was a EHS role.
 
Top