• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

RCMP First Contract

Booter

New Member
Subscriber
Reaction score
28
Points
330
Eaglelord17, thinking a bit more about what you said. Specifically about what was called "giving the taxpayers a bang for their buck".

Productivity was calculated as Unit Hour Utilization. That's the formula used by "High Performance" urban systems.
( UHU = the number of runs divided by the total number of unit hours in the measurement interval ).

Metro Police may use their own formula to measure productivity. Or, they may use the same.

It would be interesting to compare productivity stats over the years to what they are now.

With Metro Police, I think their big change came with the introduction of the two-man car ( as it was called back then ) in 1976.

To maintain the same car count meant a significant increase in hiring.

Metro fought the arbitration all the way to the Supreme Court of Canada, and lost. They still dug their heels. It took a work to rule to get it finally initiated.

"It took me 10 years to get two men in a car in Metro. We had guys beaten up, stabbed and murdered when they were one in a car."
Sid Brown, President Metro Toronto Police Association
Toronto Star, December 20, 1976

Background:
In 1972, Metro Police was made an essential service. They gave up their right to strike in exchange for compulsory binding interest arbitration.
In 1974, the arbitrator ruled in favor of the Metro Toronto Police Association on the two-man car issue.
Understandably, the higher ups were concerned that two-man cars would "drain" the car count.
This led to the 1976 slowdown by the union. Metro accepted the arbitration ruling.

Two-officer cars have been pretty common in American cities for decades. Remember Adam-12 ( LAPD ) and Car 54 ( NYPD )?

From the U.S. Department of Justice,

Not sure if two-officer cars are common in the rest of Canada?

"IN CITIES WHERE ONE-MAN PATROL PREDOMINATES, THERE IS PERSISTENT PRESSURE FROM POLICE UNIONS AND FROM THE RANK AND FILE TO MOVE TOWARD TWO-MAN CARS. IN MANY CITIES WHERE TWO-MAN CARS PREDOMINATE, THERE IS PRESSURE FROM POLICE ADMINISTRATORS CONCERNED ABOUT PATROL COVERAGE AND FROM CITY OFFICIALS CONCERNED ABOUT TAX RATES TO USE ONE-MAN CARS WHEREVER POSSIBLE."
It changes drastically across the country. A common practice is a phased approach where certain hours of the day or week utilize two officers cars etc.

Then you have agencies that have it outright forbidden in their procedures and others that leave it up to the unit commander.

With regards to the RCMP, the topic of the thread, it’s a detachment to detachment level decision, but ten years ago there was at least one division (province) that had set its own rules- I BELIEVE that is no long the case.

for my unit they could ride four to a bicycle for all I care as long as they stay on top of the calls properly.
 

CBH99

Army.ca Veteran
Donor
Reaction score
480
Points
860
Seb popped smoke. I think he’s doing leadership consulting now, and of course still folding people in shapes they didn’t think they could fold into.

Sucks. That man was a leader, and fantastic support for the guys on the road.
I had what I will genuinely call a blessed experience in meeting him like a year & a half ago, and working with him closely on a file.

I didn’t know him at all prior to us meeting for that. Absolutely awesome guy! Great leader, absolute savage, and was a real down to earth and lead by example kind of guy. Kept in touch, always enjoyed my chats with him. Nothing but good things to say about the man.

Makes sense on him popping smoke. Close to retirement anyway I remember him saying. Coast to coast - I chat with RCMP buddies way out in the maritimes (and members from Halifax) - the man’s reputation was indeed legendary.
 

CBH99

Army.ca Veteran
Donor
Reaction score
480
Points
860
Never met the man in person, but his reputation is legendary.

Surrey Detachment had it's own Staff Sergeant Major who is a similar level of leader. I don't know the actual circumstances of his departure as he remained tight lipped and professional throughout, but the Constable's underground rumour mill suggested heavily he went to bat for "the road" too hard during Covid and was made to go away by the current head shed in the Detachment. Richmond Detachment snapped him up very quickly indeed.

That same head shed has the gall to show up at night shift briefings and say things like "it's news to me" when they're told how low morale is, or alternately ask us why morale is so low when they're responsible for the lions share of it.
Didn’t realize RSM’s could easily be ‘pushed out’?

But I’ve also never been in the RCMP & have zero experience living as a member
 

mariomike

Moderator
Staff member
Directing Staff
Subscriber
Mentor
Reaction score
301
Points
1,130
for my unit they could ride four to a bicycle for all I care as long as they stay on top of the calls properly.
Now that the RCMP is unionized , do you think the union will negotiate for two-officer cars?
 

lenaitch

Sr. Member
Reaction score
291
Points
810
Now that the RCMP is unionized , do you think the union will negotiate for two-officer cars?

They may - in time - but, from what I understand of their staffing challenges, their near-term focus might better be spent there. I understand they have been working on a data-driven deployment model ( believe the OPP was collaborating with them) but don't know where it stands.

The OPP has had a two-member patrol policy for certain hours (IIRC 2200-0600) for years, unevenly followed. A former colleague's son is just finishing off his probation and says they never double up. The detachment covers a county and supposed to have a dozen or so members working but typically turns out 5-6, so it's 2-3 solo cars running call-to-call. Raw staffing numbers are an issue but the array of statutory and other leaves is really hitting the road hard.
 

mariomike

Moderator
Staff member
Directing Staff
Subscriber
Mentor
Reaction score
301
Points
1,130
The detachment covers a county and supposed to have a dozen or so members working but typically turns out 5-6, so it's 2-3 solo cars running call-to-call. Raw staffing numbers are an issue but the array of statutory and other leaves is really hitting the road hard.
I guess the locals understand the reality.

I wonder how long it takes callers up from Toronto for the weekend to start freaking out! :)
 

Booter

New Member
Subscriber
Reaction score
28
Points
330
Now that the RCMP is unionized , do you think the union will negotiate for two-officer cars?
There are a variety of things of things, and quite a long list that needs to be done first. I will be long retired before I could see a cohesive response to that.

For contexts sake- there hasn’t even really been a universal shift minimum of officers on in general yet- never mind how many cars they should be in.

the use of on-call, the availability and distance to backup, and minimums on shift will be ahead of the “cops to cars” ratio.

A city with 100000 people- may have 3 officers on by one watch commander- and the shift after that the watch commander has set a minimum of 7.
 

RedFive

Jr. Member
Reaction score
43
Points
380
Didn’t realize RSM’s could easily be ‘pushed out’?

But I’ve also never been in the RCMP & have zero experience living as a member
Make the workplace miserable enough and the member of any rank will seek employment elsewhere. The position remains unfilled...
 

Booter

New Member
Subscriber
Reaction score
28
Points
330
Didn’t realize RSM’s could easily be ‘pushed out’?

But I’ve also never been in the RCMP & have zero experience living as a member
The Warrant Officer program is all based on appointments. You can be shifted shops based on “organizational need”. If a command was interested in doing so- you could freeze a S/M out of anything really meaningful until they decided it made more sense to be anywhere else.

Any S/M appointment can occupy any Staff Sergeant job as they historically are linked together in the sense that when you were done your tour as S/M you would relinquish the appointment and return to S/Sgt rank.

this stopped about 15 years ago- but there are still some left over ties between those ranks/appointments.

if you look at pay scales- all levels of warrant officers make the same salary- because they are appointments, it’s 500 dollars more than a S/Sgt. As time go on the overlaps get less and less but they are still there.

I don’t know what happened in that particular referenced case but i have seen offices neutered in order to “suggest” they speak with their career manager/staffing person.

of course a Warrant may parachute and tell me I’m right of ‘er. It’s happened before.
 

brihard

Army.ca Fixture
Mentor
Reaction score
1,455
Points
890
There are a variety of things of things, and quite a long list that needs to be done first. I will be long retired before I could see a cohesive response to that.

For contexts sake- there hasn’t even really been a universal shift minimum of officers on in general yet- never mind how many cars they should be in.

the use of on-call, the availability and distance to backup, and minimums on shift will be ahead of the “cops to cars” ratio.

A city with 100000 people- may have 3 officers on by one watch commander- and the shift after that the watch commander has set a minimum of 7.
I think you’re right. It’ll be interesting to see what explicitly making OA/OR voluntary will do to small detachment staffing. That one on its own could be a huge reality check, to some districts... And maybe some detachment commanders who are less liked by their troops. There will be a lot of interesting adaptations to make to district staffing models.
 

Booter

New Member
Subscriber
Reaction score
28
Points
330
I think you’re right. It’ll be interesting to see what explicitly making OA/OR voluntary will do to small detachment staffing. That one on its own could be a huge reality check, to some districts... And maybe some detachment commanders who are less liked by their troops. There will be a lot of interesting adaptations to make to district staffing models.
That was actually the piece in that new contract that actually stood out the most to me. There is some significant growing pain in there. But you and I appear in the minority. No meeting rooms ive been in see it as an issue yet.

Not even when talking about places staffed at half strength 🤷‍♀️
 

brihard

Army.ca Fixture
Mentor
Reaction score
1,455
Points
890
That was actually the piece in that new contract that actually stood out the most to me. There is some significant growing pain in there. But you and I appear in the minority. No meeting rooms ive been in see it as an issue yet.

Not even when talking about places staffed at half strength 🤷‍♀️
Wait until the first time a detachment commander acts like a total dick to his or her people, and the troops decide to flex back by being selective about their willingness to take on call...

Don’t get me wrong, most members will be mostly happy to do most of the usual on call most of the time. But it becomes interesting leverage (albeit with >28 day lead time).

I’m very happy that members working in the smaller locations will be able to hang on to some work life balance and have the opportunity to carve out some truly unfettered time off as when they need it.

I bet we see more adoption of district relief crews using a hubbing model...
 

mariomike

Moderator
Staff member
Directing Staff
Subscriber
Mentor
Reaction score
301
Points
1,130
A city with 100000 people- may have 3 officers on by one watch commander- and the shift after that the watch commander has set a minimum of 7.
Does the RCMP - or OPP - have a measurable response time standard? Specifically for highest priority calls?

I read this about Edmonton Police Service.
 

Booter

New Member
Subscriber
Reaction score
28
Points
330
Does the RCMP - or OPP - have a measurable response time standard? Specifically for highest priority calls?

I read this about Edmonton Police Service.
That would be something that is worked out between a detachment and a community, I’ve run Detachments for various periods of time from larger municipal contracts to small and rural areas. Even when consulting with governments of all those communities I have never had an actual target time come up,

it is a constant topic of conversation in rural areas- and rightfully so- but never a hard and fast.

I can’t speak to pacific region, but even collecting that data would be incredibly cumbersome. On individual files I can check and see- it’s a fairly common complaint that I have to look into, but as far as global trends on response times it would be an incredibly laborious task just based off the way information is managed.

hypothetically, if I was approached by a government about it- I would have to decide on which files, because our files run the gamut- “my kid is misbehaving!” to murder. Then filter it over a period, take my pool of calls and individually check each files metadata for when certain transmissions are made. Like “on scene” and “enroute”. And not everyone uses that everytime- so the data would be contaminated.

simultaneous calls could change the way the data is entered as well.

Theres a lot of variables.

when I used to parse data for say critical incidents or high priority calls for specialized teams we could pull that data,

Like say the average priority one call to having a packet on scene. Then the second packet. Etc.

it was easier with smaller units and less calls- and the system of tracking information in those teams is done outside the call taker system, so it’s easier and more available.

You can’t even make a hat that works for the whole of this org. Let alone set a standard on response times!
 

brihard

Army.ca Fixture
Mentor
Reaction score
1,455
Points
890
Does the RCMP - or OPP - have a measurable response time standard? Specifically for highest priority calls?

I read this about Edmonton Police Service.
Where? Surrey? Moncton? Whitehorse? Pangnirtung? Sometimes response time is how fast you can clear the dumber, less important call you’re on. Sometimes it’s how soon you can get a plane. I remember doing 177km in not much more than an hour once when our neighbouring detachment had a bad one roll in just as we were starting shift. Sometimes you gauge it by “how long can my car smell like burning before I worry?”

Part of the problem the RCMP faces is any contracted standards - for anything, not just response time - have to work for everything from big city policing in B.C. to a two hundred person Nunavut hamlet.
 

mariomike

Moderator
Staff member
Directing Staff
Subscriber
Mentor
Reaction score
301
Points
1,130
Thank-you, Booter and Brihard.

I was curious because the non-police department I worked for had a response-time standard of eight minutes and 59 seconds , with 90% compliance reliability, measured on a fractile, not average, basis. (Fractile response time measurement includes a reliability factor and measures all time intervals between the time the department received enough information to initiate a response and the time a properly equipped and staffed ambulance arrives on scene.)

That included a turnout or "chute" time / wheels rolling from the station of less than 60 seconds from when the tones went off.

90% was the target. Not sure how often they achieve their benchmark these days. ( Been retired over 12 years. )

That was in the city. No idea how long it takes out of town.
 

Booter

New Member
Subscriber
Reaction score
28
Points
330
Thank-you, Booter and Brihard.

I was curious because the non-police department I worked for had a response-time standard of eight minutes and 59 seconds (8:59), with 90% compliance reliability, measured on a fractile, not average, basis. (Fractile response time measurement includes a reliability factor and measures all time intervals between the time the department received enough information to initiate a response and the time a properly equipped and staffed ambulance arrives on scene.)

That included a turnout or "chute" time / wheels rolling from the station of less than 60 seconds from when the tones went off.

90% was the target. Not sure how often they achieve that these days. ( Been retired over 12 years. )

That was in the city. No idea how long it takes out of town.
These are things that rural ems and fire track in a lot of places. the last city I was in had those stats available for fire- city and county.

I believe, if I recall correctly, there is a fire association that fire departments try and keep in line with- and they say like a town should have a concentration of so many hydrants and the response time “will be”. And as the community changes from hamlet to town or becomes incorporated they adjust around the new expectation.

that is going back fifteen years now the last time I really looked into their systems though. So whether I a) recall correctly and b) if it was a provincial thing or an association is debatable. 🤦‍♀️
 

lenaitch

Sr. Member
Reaction score
291
Points
810
Does the RCMP - or OPP - have a measurable response time standard? Specifically for highest priority calls?

I read this about Edmonton Police Service.

The OPP does not, for the same reasons stated for the RCMP. It's much easier for a municipal service with a relatively compact geography and coherent population density. For detachments that police cities and other higher density areas, the staffing will obviously be higher with the ability to seamlessly call in rural resources. Fire and EMS are a different in that they respond from a fixed location (EMS often less so as they might be clearing from a hospital, etc.); they are not 'patrolling'. Even for those in rural areas, an incident down the road from the hall vs. one 50 km away would make the data fairly meaningless.
 

Booter

New Member
Subscriber
Reaction score
28
Points
330
Surrey Detachment's stats are available to the public, including response times, at the following link.

Surrey RCMP Report to the Community

Perhaps BCPRIME is more easily mined for such data compared to Booted using PROS.
I would imagine they also have in-house dispatching as well.

this is super interesting. Thank you

they distilled it into priorities- “priority 1 calls”. Which is, I suppose, is the real “emergency work” so that makes sense.
 
Last edited:
Top