RCMP getting new APCs

[Container]

:

they need them to deliver assaulters safely to the doors they kick without having to use an open air option and kill everyone at a standoff because they had to walk up the farm driveway with their dicks hanging out "Shrek"

 

[JorgSlice]

Cops need this because why again? Jerk with a .308 maybe?

At least they don't have friggin M113s and M577s like down south.

WOW! Someone clearly has no idea what they're talking about.

P.S. US Police services have some pretty nice SWAT Armoured Carriers too, don't be so quick to judge there, "big shot"

 

[Dissident]

"Presence" was the first force option on the use of force model/wheel we use to use. Since we should use as little force as necessary, solving problems by using presence is a preferred solution.

If a bad guy see's an APC/armored truck out of the window, he is not likely to decide to fight his way out.

Recently this very scenario happened on a friends shift. The subject surrendered peacefully thanks to I am sure to the overwhelming professional presence of the members on site. Everybody wins.

Si vis pacem, para bellum.

 

[Shrek1985]

Hey Container, PrairieThunder, grow up. This isn't Myspace.

NinerSix, let me make sure I understand this, and forgive my disbelief, but; 8, or so, or more(?) guys with armour, tac gear and military carbines SMGs and whatever else, plus normal cops, squad cars, ect is not enough presence?

And excuse me if I'm showing a lack of tact, but perhaps a reminder of Sir Robert Peel's Principles of Policing are in order? Especially the 4th and 9th.


    1. The basic mission for which the police exist is to prevent crime and disorder.
    2. The ability of the police to perform their duties is dependent upon the public approval of police actions.
    3. Police must secure the willing co-operation of the public in voluntary observation of the law to be able to secure and maintain the respect of the public.
    4. The degree of co-operation of the public that can be secured diminishes proportionately to the necessity of the use of physical force.
    5. Police seek and preserve public favour not by catering to public opinion, but by constantly demonstrating absolute impartial service to the law.
    6. Police use physical force to the extent necessary to secure observance of the law or to restore order only when the exercise of persuasion, advice, and warning is found to be insufficient.
    7. Police, at all times, should maintain a relationship with the public that gives reality to the historic tradition that the police are the public and the public are the police; the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent upon every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence.
    8. Police should always direct their action strictly towards their functions, and never appear to usurp the powers of the judiciary.
    9. The test of police efficiency is the absence of crime and disorder, not the visible evidence of police action in dealing with it.

                -source Wiki

My point is I think cops in APCs alienate the hell out of people. They look military; not good.

I hate to quote Battlestar Galactica, but it pays to from time to time; "The Police protect the people from themselves, the military protects the people from the enemies of the state. When the military becomes the police, the people become the enemies of the state." Now here we have police forces becoming more militarized and I think it has the same effect.

 

[Allgunzblazing]

Shrek1985,

You make a very valid point about alienating the public.

However, by giving law enforcement agencies the tools required to effectively do their job, in my opinion they are not being militarized.

Just my two cents.

 

[JorgSlice]

Hey Container, PrairieThunder, grow up. This isn't Myspace.

NinerSix, let me make sure I understand this, and forgive my disbelief, but; 8, or so, or more(?) guys with armour, tac gear and military carbines SMGs and whatever else, plus normal cops, squad cars, ect is not enough presence?

And excuse me if I'm showing a lack of tact, but perhaps a reminder of Sir Robert Peel's Principles of Policing are in order? Especially the 4th and 9th.


    1. The basic mission for which the police exist is to prevent crime and disorder.
    2. The ability of the police to perform their duties is dependent upon the public approval of police actions.
    3. Police must secure the willing co-operation of the public in voluntary observation of the law to be able to secure and maintain the respect of the public.
    4. The degree of co-operation of the public that can be secured diminishes proportionately to the necessity of the use of physical force.
    5. Police seek and preserve public favour not by catering to public opinion, but by constantly demonstrating absolute impartial service to the law.
    6. Police use physical force to the extent necessary to secure observance of the law or to restore order only when the exercise of persuasion, advice, and warning is found to be insufficient.
    7. Police, at all times, should maintain a relationship with the public that gives reality to the historic tradition that the police are the public and the public are the police; the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent upon every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence.
    8. Police should always direct their action strictly towards their functions, and never appear to usurp the powers of the judiciary.
    9. The test of police efficiency is the absence of crime and disorder, not the visible evidence of police action in dealing with it.

                -source Wiki

My point is I think cops in APCs alienate the hell out of people. They look military; not good.

I hate to quote Battlestar Galactica, but it pays to from time to time; "The Police protect the people from themselves, the military protects the people from the enemies of the state. When the military becomes the police, the people become the enemies of the state." Now here we have police forces becoming more militarized and I think it has the same effect.

Someone is a tad testy. "Grow up, this isn't Myspace." I don't see anyone else throwing a tantrum about Protected Vehicles for the Police.

Put yourself in their shoes, especially the 4 RCMP that died in Mayerthorpe or other police in serious incidences where an armoured vehicle like these APCs could have saved their lives. All those vests and gear are not 100% bullet proof, and someone in the Army should know this too. Police and Military issued vests here in Canada sometimes aren't as nice as some of the stuff you can order from US Suppliers, some vests and body armour can only take 2-4 rounds of your standard FMJ 9mm or .45ACP (don't get me started on Hollow Point, you're screwed if your threat is armed with hollow point) before it becomes just a piece of cloth. If you have a trauma plate, then your protection increases but not everyone is well-funded enough to get all those gucci equipment.

You're entitled to your belief, but cool your jets a little. I'm entitled to my belief that your belief is absurd.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

You can all quit with the personal attacks, Prairie Thunder, Shrek, et al.

If you can't play together properly, you can get out of the sandbox and go stand with your nose to the wall in the corner.

EVERYONE here is entitled to their opinion. Remember that.

Milnet.ca Staff

 

[garb811]

My point is I think cops in APCs alienate the hell out of people. They look military; not good.

If the intent was to make these vehs the standard police patrol vehicle, you'd have a point.  Fact is, 99.999% of the population is never, ever, going to see one of these unless it is on display or travelling to an incident.  For the 0.001% that actually do see it in action, they are either going to be very glad, or very upset, that it is on scene.

 

[Dissident]

NinerSix, let me make sure I understand this, and forgive my disbelief, but; 8, or so, or more(?) guys with armour, tac gear and military carbines SMGs and whatever else, plus normal cops, squad cars, ect is not enough presence?

And excuse me if I'm showing a lack of tact, but perhaps a reminder of Sir Robert Peel's Principles of Policing are in order? Especially the 4th and 9th.

My point is I think cops in APCs alienate the hell out of people. They look military; not good.

I hate to quote Battlestar Galactica, but it pays to from time to time; "The Police protect the people from themselves, the military protects the people from the enemies of the state. When the military becomes the police, the people become the enemies of the state." Now here we have police forces becoming more militarized and I think it has the same effect.

I am glad you quoted the Peel principles because that is what my argument is based upon.

Resolving the situation partly by having an APC on site is a whole lot less force than having to shoot a suspect/subject. (Rules 4 and 6)

Also, real life isn't Hollywood. Without going too deep into tactics and TTPs a suspect shouldn't see uniformed members/squad cars out of his window. Just think about it: anyone responding to a scene of an armed suspect will be using cover and concealment as much as possible. So no, it would not be enough presence because the suspect is not meant to see the responding officers because of officer safety concerns. A "squad car" offers little protection, even the CVPI with the ballistic panels in the doors only offer so much protection and not many departments have those (MPs sure as hell don't).

Don't get me wrong, I too am very conscious of the image projected by the police since I have vetted vested interest in it. It is unfortunate that you feel this way about it, but in the end it is a necessary tool, which sadly not every department has access to.

Edit: My french got the best of me.

 

[Retired AF Guy]

APC's have been used by police forces before.  From the Calgary Police Service website for CPS officers who were killed in the line of duty.

1974 - Detective Boyd Davidson

On December 20, 1974, a concerned storekeeper reported that a customer had become abusive when he refused to sell him airplane glue. When officers approached the residence of Philippe Gagnon, they were met with gunfire.

Backup units arrived to find the man hiding in a garage with an automatic rifle and plenty of ammunition. In the shootout that followed, Detective Boyd Davidson died from a shot in the neck while six other officers were wounded. Gagnon, who had a long history of mental illness and drug abuse, also died at the scene after being flushed from the garage by a Canadian forces armoured personnel carrier. Because Gagnon's nose was lined with glue, tear gas was ineffective.

Detective Davidson was 43 years old and a 23-year veteran of the force. He was instrumental in the creation of the combined police and fire arson squad and was known for his expertise. Detective Davidson was survived by his wife and five children.

A review of the tragic and volatile incident accelerated the formation of a special tactical team to respond to emergency situations.

My Emphasis.

Article Link.

The APC used was an M-113.

 

[JorgSlice]

You can all quit with the personal attacks, Prairie Thunder, Shrek, et al.

If you can't play together properly, you can get out of the sandbox and go stand with your nose to the wall in the corner.

EVERYONE here is entitled to their opinion. Remember that.

Milnet.ca Staff

Ack, got a little carried away.

 

[Container]

Hey Container, PrairieThunder, grow up. This isn't Myspace.

NinerSix, let me make sure I understand this, and forgive my disbelief, but; 8, or so, or more(?) guys with armour, tac gear and military carbines SMGs and whatever else, plus normal cops, squad cars, ect is not enough presence?

And excuse me if I'm showing a lack of tact, but perhaps a reminder of Sir Robert Peel's Principles of Policing are in order? Especially the 4th and 9th.


    1. The basic mission for which the police exist is to prevent crime and disorder.
    2. The ability of the police to perform their duties is dependent upon the public approval of police actions.
    3. Police must secure the willing co-operation of the public in voluntary observation of the law to be able to secure and maintain the respect of the public.
    4. The degree of co-operation of the public that can be secured diminishes proportionately to the necessity of the use of physical force.
    5. Police seek and preserve public favour not by catering to public opinion, but by constantly demonstrating absolute impartial service to the law.
    6. Police use physical force to the extent necessary to secure observance of the law or to restore order only when the exercise of persuasion, advice, and warning is found to be insufficient.
    7. Police, at all times, should maintain a relationship with the public that gives reality to the historic tradition that the police are the public and the public are the police; the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent upon every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence.
    8. Police should always direct their action strictly towards their functions, and never appear to usurp the powers of the judiciary.
    9. The test of police efficiency is the absence of crime and disorder, not the visible evidence of police action in dealing with it.

                -source Wiki

My point is I think cops in APCs alienate the hell out of people. They look military; not good.

I hate to quote Battlestar Galactica, but it pays to from time to time; "The Police protect the people from themselves, the military protects the people from the enemies of the state. When the military becomes the police, the people become the enemies of the state." Now here we have police forces becoming more militarized and I think it has the same effect.

They arent patrolled in. So they dont alienate people- they are used in high risk situations that call for all those things.

They need to deliver people up a km long driveway to be deployed in the first place. In urban and rural settings they sit ready to deploy for hours while negotiations take place.

Sir Robert Peel and his laws are from almost 200 hundred years ago. Still good things- but  things dont change? Id be happy to let you go back to how war was waged 200 years ago if you'd like. No matter what your opponent does- stay the same!

The public has changed, the police have changed in their function, the threats have changed. The Peelian principles arent the be all end all. Despite what a Criminology/Police Studies class tells you.


I sat in this truck a few weeks ago. Its a big blue truck. Hardly an Abrams.

The police are hardly militarized. Come ask any of my detachment to sleep in a tent for the weekend or to manipulate their firearm and you'll see that.

 

[Shrek1985]

You can all quit with the personal attacks, Prairie Thunder, Shrek, et al.

If you can't play together properly, you can get out of the sandbox and go stand with your nose to the wall in the corner.

EVERYONE here is entitled to their opinion. Remember that.

Milnet.ca Staff

wilco