RCMP officers told not to wear symbol depicting ‘thin blue line’

[daftandbarmy]

There's a couple issues with the Smith and Wesson 5946.

Firstly, S&W stopped making parts for them in 1999. We're out of parts. So now we hire contractors to scratch build parts like breech blocks/barrels, recoil spring guide rods, and trigger springs. There have been numerous Force wide emails sent out to monitor your pistol for cracking in the breech block. I have also been warned by BFI's to watch out for bent guide rods and variable trigger pulls. I am told the contractor to produce the parts was supposed to be Colt Canada, but both CC and S&W told the GoC to pound sand. Who knows who makes the parts now? (if you do, I'd love to hear from you) I shoot my pistol on my own time regularly, and have little faith in it as a life or death option of last resort. (The part above about CC and the GoC is rumour, told to me by a firearms instructor and should be treated as such)

Secondly, the trigger pull is 12 pounds, and a ridiculous length. Referred to as a "lawyer's trigger" (again, by a Firearms instructor) the idea is the only way this pistol will go off is if you meant it to go off. Great idea at the concept stage, but it makes it bloody hard to shoot, even for a guy who has grown up around guns. Other members who don't practice on their own time or lack the wrist strength to keep it on target while dealing with the trigger often populate the learning assistance range spots after failed qualifications. I'm not advocating for a 2lb trigger, but a more reasonable weight would be suitable.

Thirdly, there is no rail to mount a flashlight on. That might seem to some to be a first world problem, but its fairly common place amongst other forces and even RCMP Police Dog Services. Why? If I've got my pistol in one hand and flashlight in the other, the door doesn't even have to be locked to become an insurmountable problem. Do I holster my pistol and open the door with a flashlight out so I can see what's on the other side? Or do I open the door with my gun out sans flashlight, and hope whatever is on the other side is easily seen?

They are great guns, and I would love to keep mine as a gun owner when it is retired. It'll never happen, as they're prohibited by barrel length. I just don't trust the thing with my life.


Our body armour used to say it was NIJ Lvl II on it, then they changed that to an RCMP specification number I've been unable to find referenced in Policy. It's also only allowed to be replaced every 7 years, instead of 5 like every other armour manufacturer I'm aware of.

Needless to say, I and many other members have bought our own IIIA armour. Cost me $1400 including the carrier to fit it, but getting home to my family is worth that amount, at least.

The hard body armour carriers that ride in the back of every PC these days are rated to IV (30-06 AP). No idea what the life span is on those, but I seriously doubt they plan on replacing them in a timely fashion.


100% sure, but a phone conversation I had with an MP the other day while at work led me to believe the organizations suffer from some of the same problems...


Brihard is clearly vastly more articulate than I am and has done a great job of explaining most of the frustrations with management right now. The real anger in this is for management to drop this bomb on us while there are so many other, vastly more pressing issues that need dealing with. They instead chose to take aim at one of the few concepts/campaigns/displays of camaraderie and espirit de corps left in Policing, in the name of wokeness. I have since heard that management only took issue with TBL flags because Heritage Canada protested that it was a defacement of the Canadian flag being worn by Federal Employees. I'll believe that when the RCMP becomes the top paid police force in Canada.

I look forward to the NPF achieving our first bargaining agreement, the result of which I hope will be management being held to account and the s***pumps of the organization being thrown out on their ***. And hopefully better pay, kit and working conditions will attract better recruits. My time at Depot was... scary.

Holy cr@p... 

That is all  :cdnsalute:

 

[Kat Stevens]

There's a couple issues with the Smith and Wesson 5946.

Firstly, S&W stopped making parts for them in 1999. We're out of parts. So now we hire contractors to scratch build parts like breech blocks/barrels, recoil spring guide rods, and trigger springs. There have been numerous Force wide emails sent out to monitor your pistol for cracking in the breech block. I have also been warned by BFI's to watch out for bent guide rods and variable trigger pulls. I am told the contractor to produce the parts was supposed to be Colt Canada, but both CC and S&W told the GoC to pound sand. Who knows who makes the parts now? (if you do, I'd love to hear from you) I shoot my pistol on my own time regularly, and have little faith in it as a life or death option of last resort. (The part above about CC and the GoC is rumour, told to me by a firearms instructor and should be treated as such)

Secondly, the trigger pull is 12 pounds, and a ridiculous length. Referred to as a "lawyer's trigger" (again, by a Firearms instructor) the idea is the only way this pistol will go off is if you meant it to go off. Great idea at the concept stage, but it makes it bloody hard to shoot, even for a guy who has grown up around guns. Other members who don't practice on their own time or lack the wrist strength to keep it on target while dealing with the trigger often populate the learning assistance range spots after failed qualifications. I'm not advocating for a 2lb trigger, but a more reasonable weight would be suitable.

Thirdly, there is no rail to mount a flashlight on. That might seem to some to be a first world problem, but its fairly common place amongst other forces and even RCMP Police Dog Services. Why? If I've got my pistol in one hand and flashlight in the other, the door doesn't even have to be locked to become an insurmountable problem. Do I holster my pistol and open the door with a flashlight out so I can see what's on the other side? Or do I open the door with my gun out sans flashlight, and hope whatever is on the other side is easily seen?

They are great guns, and I would love to keep mine as a gun owner when it is retired. It'll never happen, as they're prohibited by barrel length. I just don't trust the thing with my life.


Our body armour used to say it was NIJ Lvl II on it, then they changed that to an RCMP specification number I've been unable to find referenced in Policy. It's also only allowed to be replaced every 7 years, instead of 5 like every other armour manufacturer I'm aware of.

Needless to say, I and many other members have bought our own IIIA armour. Cost me $1400 including the carrier to fit it, but getting home to my family is worth that amount, at least.

The hard body armour carriers that ride in the back of every PC these days are rated to IV (30-06 AP). No idea what the life span is on those, but I seriously doubt they plan on replacing them in a timely fashion.


100% sure, but a phone conversation I had with an MP the other day while at work led me to believe the organizations suffer from some of the same problems...


Brihard is clearly vastly more articulate than I am and has done a great job of explaining most of the frustrations with management right now. The real anger in this is for management to drop this bomb on us while there are so many other, vastly more pressing issues that need dealing with. They instead chose to take aim at one of the few concepts/campaigns/displays of camaraderie and espirit de corps left in Policing, in the name of wokeness. I have since heard that management only took issue with TBL flags because Heritage Canada protested that it was a defacement of the Canadian flag being worn by Federal Employees. I'll believe that when the RCMP becomes the top paid police force in Canada.

I look forward to the NPF achieving our first bargaining agreement, the result of which I hope will be management being held to account and the s***pumps of the organization being thrown out on their ***. And hopefully better pay, kit and working conditions will attract better recruits. My time at Depot was... scary.

Defund the police?? Holy shitballs, someone should start a GoFundMe page for you guys!

 

[RedFive]

Defund the police?? Holy shitballs, someone should start a GoFundMe page for you guys!

What I've said here is already Code of Conduct bait. I could explain all kinds of little wonders that would shock the public.

Then again, the bill for a Police force properly staffed, paid and equipped would shock the Public in any RCMP jurisdiction.

 

[brihard]

What I've said here is already Code of Conduct bait. I could explain all kinds of little wonders that would shock the public.

Then again, the bill for a Police force properly staffed, paid and equipped would shock the Public in any RCMP jurisdiction.

Good news is if you eat a code we’ll provide you a lawyer. And there’s a recent labour law precedent out of Saskatchewan that should offer a little bit more protection to employees speaking up about their employer in a government regulated environment.

 

[Remius]

Good news is if you eat a code we’ll provide you a lawyer. And there’s a recent labour law precedent out of Saskatchewan that should offer a little bit more protection to employees speaking up about their employer in a government regulated environment.

That’s a good start.

 

[MJP]

Lol. Ahhh both sides of the debate are equally whiny IMHO and lose credibility.  Reasoned response is over taken by hyperbole by both sides to legitimate and in some cases fundamental issues ( systemic racism in the USA for example).  To be clear I am talking about the greater defund police movement and the response by police supporters, not this thread in general ( well less these crappy memes which belong in some police subreddit) as it has been good and well reasoned so far.

Have no dog in the fight, but I am sure both sides have decent points that are lost in the general hubris of both sides

 

[CBH99]

Lol. Ahhh both sides of the debate are equally whiny IMHO and lose credibility.  Reasoned response is over taken by hyperbole by both sides to legitimate and in some cases fundamental issues ( systemic racism in the USA for example).  To be clear I am talking about the greater defund police movement and the response by police supporters, not this thread in general ( well less these crappy memes which belong in some police subreddit) as it has been good and well reasoned so far.

Have no dog in the fight, but I am sure both sides have decent point

Hey, my memes are amazing.  The 10 seconds it took me to find those speaks volumes as to their quality!  Thank You Very Much...  [

 

[RedFive]

Good news is if you eat a code we’ll provide you a lawyer. And there’s a recent labour law precedent out of Saskatchewan that should offer a little bit more protection to employees speaking up about their employer in a government regulated environment.

And that's why I like having well reasoned and articulate people like yourself, for all the times I go and tell people the truth. Oops, I mean say something dumb, that's what they called it last time I got yelled at for speaking my mind. 

Bad Mountie, back to work.  :tsktsk:

 

[brihard]

Lol. Ahhh both sides of the debate are equally whiny IMHO and lose credibility.  Reasoned response is over taken by hyperbole by both sides to legitimate and in some cases fundamental issues ( systemic racism in the USA for example).  To be clear I am talking about the greater defund police movement and the response by police supporters, not this thread in general ( well less these crappy memes which belong in some police subreddit) as it has been good and well reasoned so far.

Have no dog in the fight, but I am sure both sides have decent point

I can’t recall which thread it was, but I’ve definitely given some thoughts on the whole ‘defund’ thing before. Generally speaking, it’s going to depend on what they mean by that. If it’s simply yanking police funding without any thought given to it, then yeah, that’s worth nothing. If it’s the conscious diversion of funding from police to fill other societal needs AND in doing so reduce the workload of police getting sent to stuff that shouldn’t be their problem (Non-violent domestics, BS neighbour disputes, non-violent mental health calls etc), then that’s worth looking at. Unfortunately, much if not most of the ‘defund’ rhetoric is just mindless anti-police noise, not thought out policy alternatives. Society could certainly stand to benefit from less of police being employed as adult babysitters, often for the same people who are our most vocal critics.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Murray-Hill riot might (or might not) be a good example of what happens when the police step back and take a knee.

The Murray-Hill riot, also known as Montreal's night of terror, was the culmination of 16 hours of unrest in Montreal, Quebec during a strike by the Montreal police on 7 October 1969.

Police were motivated to strike because of difficult working conditions caused by disarming FLQ-planted bombs and patrolling frequent protests. Montreal police also wanted higher pay, commensurate with police earnings in Toronto

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murray-Hill_riot

 

[blacktriangle]

Murray-Hill riot might (or might not) be a good example of what happens when the police step back and take a knee.

It would be interesting to see if calls to defund the police would die out if Law Enforcement unions coordinated a similar thing nation (or continent) wide. There are definitely crappy cops out there, and that scares me. But the alternative is even less appealing...

 

[mariomike]

> Montreal police also wanted higher pay, commensurate with police earnings in Toronto.

I don't remember Toronto emergency services ever having a strike. But, Metro Police did have a job action ( a slowdown ) in 1976, over the two-officer car.

 

[blacktriangle]

There's a couple issues with the Smith and Wesson 5946.

Firstly, S&W stopped making parts for them in 1999. We're out of parts. So now we hire contractors to scratch build parts like breech blocks/barrels, recoil spring guide rods, and trigger springs. There have been numerous Force wide emails sent out to monitor your pistol for cracking in the breech block. I have also been warned by BFI's to watch out for bent guide rods and variable trigger pulls. I am told the contractor to produce the parts was supposed to be Colt Canada, but both CC and S&W told the GoC to pound sand. Who knows who makes the parts now? (if you do, I'd love to hear from you) I shoot my pistol on my own time regularly, and have little faith in it as a life or death option of last resort. (The part above about CC and the GoC is rumour, told to me by a firearms instructor and should be treated as such)

Secondly, the trigger pull is 12 pounds, and a ridiculous length. Referred to as a "lawyer's trigger" (again, by a Firearms instructor) the idea is the only way this pistol will go off is if you meant it to go off. Great idea at the concept stage, but it makes it bloody hard to shoot, even for a guy who has grown up around guns. Other members who don't practice on their own time or lack the wrist strength to keep it on target while dealing with the trigger often populate the learning assistance range spots after failed qualifications. I'm not advocating for a 2lb trigger, but a more reasonable weight would be suitable.

Thirdly, there is no rail to mount a flashlight on. That might seem to some to be a first world problem, but its fairly common place amongst other forces and even RCMP Police Dog Services. Why? If I've got my pistol in one hand and flashlight in the other, the door doesn't even have to be locked to become an insurmountable problem. Do I holster my pistol and open the door with a flashlight out so I can see what's on the other side? Or do I open the door with my gun out sans flashlight, and hope whatever is on the other side is easily seen?

They are great guns, and I would love to keep mine as a gun owner when it is retired. It'll never happen, as they're prohibited by barrel length. I just don't trust the thing with my life.


Our body armour used to say it was NIJ Lvl II on it, then they changed that to an RCMP specification number I've been unable to find referenced in Policy. It's also only allowed to be replaced every 7 years, instead of 5 like every other armour manufacturer I'm aware of.

Needless to say, I and many other members have bought our own IIIA armour. Cost me $1400 including the carrier to fit it, but getting home to my family is worth that amount, at least.

The hard body armour carriers that ride in the back of every PC these days are rated to IV (30-06 AP). No idea what the life span is on those, but I seriously doubt they plan on replacing them in a timely fashion.


100% sure, but a phone conversation I had with an MP the other day while at work led me to believe the organizations suffer from some of the same problems...


Brihard is clearly vastly more articulate than I am and has done a great job of explaining most of the frustrations with management right now. The real anger in this is for management to drop this bomb on us while there are so many other, vastly more pressing issues that need dealing with. They instead chose to take aim at one of the few concepts/campaigns/displays of camaraderie and espirit de corps left in Policing, in the name of wokeness. I have since heard that management only took issue with TBL flags because Heritage Canada protested that it was a defacement of the Canadian flag being worn by Federal Employees. I'll believe that when the RCMP becomes the top paid police force in Canada.

I look forward to the NPF achieving our first bargaining agreement, the result of which I hope will be management being held to account and the s***pumps of the organization being thrown out on their ***. And hopefully better pay, kit and working conditions will attract better recruits. My time at Depot was... scary.

I've always wondered why rail mounted lights weren't standard for LEOs.

I also can't help but think that hip/belt or drop leg holster placement might be putting LEO at a tactical disadvantage considering how much time they spend sitting in vehicles etc.

Edited for clarity. Not enough caffeine or nicotine today it seems.

 

[RedFive]

I'm willing to put up with a slightly larger holster for the benefit it would bring.

I've been lugging an X26P Taser around in an RCMP approved drop leg holster for two and a half years now, and it's a gigantic pain in the rear to deal with on a day to day basis. I've never had to deploy it. But I'd rather have the tool than not, and my waist line doesn't give me enough room on my belt to wear it in a belt holster.

I can't understand why it has taken so long to replace the 5946 ("the Chunk" as it's somewhat affectionately referred to, because of its weight and relative uselessness beyond a blunt force impact weapon)
All I've heard is rumours non-stop about cold weather performance and reliability, arguments over whether they're going to buy a pistol to equip every member or just some (ERT, PDS and Air Carrier Protection program carry different pistols and, according to the rumours, are not interested in losing their chosen pistols for a one size fits all option), and other such trivial matters like the RCMP wanting to reinvent the wheel to get a pistol that satisfies the always present cost factor.

In short, they're trying to choose a pistol that is suitable for the best gunfighters the RCMP has, works flawlessly at -60, is concealable, suitable for patrol, mounts a flashlight and isn't going to be dangerous in the hands of members who manage to earn their badge despite a total lack of firearms competence then never practice again besides the once a year range date they have to re-qualify (if they even go every year)(hence heavy trigger pulls ERT types don't want, large pistol types the Air Marshalls don't want, can't pull the trigger to take apart, stuff like that)

If anybody knows of a pistol that can do all that, let me know and I'll forward it along.

 

[Jarnhamar]

[quote author=RedFive]

If anybody knows of a pistol that can do all that, let me know and I'll forward it along.
[/quote]

Glock 19 with an Inforce APLc light.

There's even a Canadian version with a maple leaf you can draw a blue line though 

But really, it's a really great shooter IMO. Just can't mitigate dangerous shooters.

 

[blacktriangle]

Glock 19 with an Inforce APLc light.

There's even a Canadian version with a maple leaf you can draw a blue line though 

But really, it's a really great shooter IMO. Just can't mitigate dangerous shooters.

I bet it would mitigate certain dangerous shooters pretty well. 

 

[RedFive]

Glock 19 with an Inforce APLc light.

There's even a Canadian version with a maple leaf you can draw a blue line though 

But really, it's a really great shooter IMO. Just can't mitigate dangerous shooters.

Last I heard, off the table due to needing to pull the trigger to disassemble. They trust us with authorities unseen in any other profession, but not in the proper disassembly of our sidearms...

EDIT to add: Pretty sure they don't like polymer pistols for -60 brittleness on patrol in our more northern territories.

 

[dapaterson]

If anybody knows of a pistol that can do all that, let me know and I'll forward it along.

You left out "Is willing to have their IP transferred to Colt Canada to be built in Canada for triple the price because of procurement rules."

 

[RedFive]

You left out "Is willing to have their IP transferred to Colt Canada to be built in Canada for triple the price because of procurement rules."

Perhaps we're all waiting for CC to design their own pistol? The Hi-Powers in the vault at my unit need to put out of their misery in a bad way...

 

[Haggis]

You left out "Is willing to have their IP transferred to Colt Canada to be built in Canada for triple the price because of procurement rules."

Which is a large part of why the CAF have yet to replace the Browning High Power.