RCMP prevent attack - 10 Aug 2016

[jollyjacktar]

What alarms me to some degree is that:
1. it wasn't picked up by our police and security organs but the FBI.
2. neighbours heard loud bangs like small explosions in the night a few days before shit went down, and reported it to the police...  so people are doing the "if you see something (or in this case, hear something), say something" which they did to, it seems to me, no effect.
3. this was someone I would expect, on the watch list.  Was at least electronically monitored until they relaxed their vigilance, just like in Normandy last month, and took off the tracker.
4. he was another convert to the faith, they for whatever reason seem to be the targetable ones by and large it seems to come to light in the after action breakdown of these assholes and their history.

I could go on with some other things, but will leave it at that as it's not for a public forum and I've addressed it up my chain.

 

[Haggis]

Why the lack of bloodstains?

Because the whole thing was staged by inept government operatives to allow them to strip us of our freedoms, of course.

:Tin-Foil-Hat:

... wait.. this isn't the whackjob conspiracy theory thread?  Oops!

 

[George Wallace]

Because the whole thing was staged by inept government operatives to allow them to strip us of our freedoms, of course.

:Tin-Foil-Hat:

... wait.. this isn't the whackjob conspiracy theory thread?  Oops!

WAIT!

Harper is no longer PM.  That throws the whole "Blame Harper" movement out of the picture. 

 

[George Wallace]

What alarms me to some degree is that:
1. it wasn't picked up by our police and security organs but the FBI.
2. neighbours heard loud bangs like small explosions in the night a few days before shit went down, and reported it to the police...  so people are doing the "if you see something (or in this case, hear something), say something" which they did to, it seems to me, no effect.
3. this was someone I would expect, on the watch list.  Was at least electronically monitored until they relaxed their vigilance, just like in Normandy last month, and took off the tracker.
4. he was another convert to the faith, they for whatever reason seem to be the targetable ones by and large it seems to come to light in the after action breakdown of these assholes and their history.

I could go on with some other things, but will leave it at that as it's not for a public forum and I've addressed it up my chain.

This is one case where Intelligence was effectively used and brought out into the public limelight.  That you are not privy to all the behind the scenes work that was done, should not cause you to start questions why things did not happen as your imagination thinks they should have.  They may very well have happened.  Should you really be questioning a "successful" intervention of a terrorist act?  We just saw the sharing of information between various Agencies whose jobs are to protect us.  A success story; not a failure like 911 where Agencies did not share what they knew.

 

[jollyjacktar]

This is one case where Intelligence was effectively used and brought out into the public limelight.  That you are not privy to all the behind the scenes work that was done, should not cause you to start questions why things did not happen as your imagination thinks they should have.  They may very well have happened.  Should you really be questioning a "successful" intervention of a terrorist act?  We just saw the sharing of information between various Agencies whose jobs are to protect us.  A success story; not a failure like 911 where Agencies did not share what they knew.

Maybe so, but my training and former background do cause me to question.  Like it or not.

 

[cupper]

CTV also made reference to CANSOFCOM involvement. My guess would be CJIRU given the threat.

I heard that on NPR this morning too.

 

[Cloud Cover]

What alarms me to some degree is that:
1. it wasn't picked up by our police and security organs but the FBI.

Sadly, I think believe this is where the encryption debate is going to come into play. In all likelihood, what this lad was doing in public broadcast format (i.e. Twitter public posts) may have been not nearly as informative as what was passing though encrypted channels hosted by companies in the the United States. If he was on the Canadian watch list, he was on the US watch list as well.

The problem with the Internet is, despite all the ruckus caused by Snowden, the US (and even the FBI) still has far more capacity and capability than Canada to access what is ostensibly hidden. Not because they are better at it, or have more robust laws, but orders from our courts have no force in California and the US has access to the air gap between servers, and what is stored on servers (using appropriate legal authority, of course)  Even Youtube is now encrypting what a person is streaming to their home PC, Google is encrypting search engine sessions (i.e. what you are looking up) and even WhatsApp is now end to end encrypted. All of these companies put us into a blind spot, but to some degree they still have useful data for intelligence collection, sometimes even actual content data.

So, resources and capacity are a problem, always will be. What does concern me is there is a report that a Mosque in London was working with this person trying to de-radicalize him, and they were very recently expressing concerns after he was on the peace bond.

http://london.ctvnews.ca/london-muslim-mosque-releases-statement-following-strathroy-incident-1.3025216#

"Aaron Driver came to the attention of London Muslim Mosque over a year ago after he moved from Winnipeg as part of his peace bond. Mosque officials immediately informed the police of his presence and kept the authorities apprised of their engagement efforts.

The London Muslim community prioritizes the safety of all Canadians and efforts were made to engage Aaron with the hope that the warmth of community involvement and engagement might change his perspective. At all times, the police were updated about these efforts, in addition to their own monitoring. While he had wrong views about the world, at no time did any officials with the Mosque know or suspect that Aaron was translating those views into any kind of attack. He did not display any outward signs of aggression.

The Mosque knew of his views, and chose not to turn a blind eye to the problem of violent extremism. We engaged him with the hope of changing his views on Islam and to show him the true, peaceful nature of our religion. We constantly monitored his activities within the Mosque and did our best to keep the authorities engaged with our activities."

So, it seems that this person was playing games- acting somewhat compliant but he did seem to even fool the Mosque into thinking he was not the danger that he became after the peace bond was issued. 

Edit: As a person who lives near Strathroy (very near) I would like to thank the London Mosque for their efforts, I am sorry it did not work out for the better. And thank you to the LEA's and the little green men who probably drive past my house on the way to Strathroy.

 

[a_majoor]

How close to home does this get?

London police had cordoned off an area in North West London yesterday evening as part of the investigation into this terror event. I live close to downtown London, and my son had gone to Citi Plaza yesterday afternoon. My wife is still shaking.

As for myself, I can only thank God for sparing so many people here in London this time, and hope that whatever other people were involved (and I am not a believer in "Lone Wolf" attacks, when you look into it there is usually a small cell of enablers) get rounded up as well.

 

[George Wallace]

Maybe so, but my training and former background do cause me to question.  Like it or not.

No problem.  My former background gave me enough exposure to the fringes of events to now know that there is always a lot more to what is going on than what we hear about.  In fact much more is happening that we will never hear about.  As well the necessity to know and execute the formulation of questions, delegation of tasks, and gathering info as part of the job to decipher what various COAs could be. 

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Sometimes, it pays to look at things in the simplest form you can;  whatever the hostile intentions were, they were stopped before he was able to execute.  That makes this a 'win' in my books.  I also do things in my job that I know about because "I need to" that most of the CAF, let alone any police force or the public, will have no eyes on.  I don't want people second guessing how I do that job/mission/whatever (because they don't understand the how, the why and all the moving parts).

In incidents like these, I remind myself I shouldn't do the second guessing, because I don't know the how's, why's and all the moving parts.  An enemy was neutralized before innocent lives were taken.  I'm happy to call this a success.  :2c:

 

[George Wallace]

What alarms me to some degree is that:
1. it wasn't picked up by our police and security organs but the FBI.

Remember that CSE and CSIS are specifically mandated NOT to spy on Canadians.  That would be the likely reason the FBI passed on info to the RCMP that NSA or CIA had likely in turn have passed on to them.  The Americans likely have deployed a vastly larger effort towards cyber security and intelligence gathering than we have and likely are much quicker to find and explore sites and addresses frequently posting security threats.  It is a loophole that we can legally use in cases like this -- We did not spy on a Canadian; the Americans did and they informed us of a "Threat".

All the makings of a Tom Clancy novel.

 

[PuckChaser]

There's a difference between spying on, and passing open source intelligence on to Canadian authorities. The FBI likely saw the video, analyzed it to determine person was likely Canadian, and immediately handed off.

 

[GAP]

There's a difference between spying on, and passing open source intelligence on to Canadian authorities. The FBI likely saw the video, analyzed it to determine person was likely Canadian, and immediately handed off.

or they checked out the IP address.....

 

[PuckChaser]

or they checked out the IP address.....

Which could mean very little, it's extremely easy to use proxy services to hide your actual location.

 

[The Bread Guy]

... there is a report that a Mosque in London was working with this person trying to de-radicalize him, and they were very recently expressing concerns after he was on the peace bond.

http://london.ctvnews.ca/london-muslim-mosque-releases-statement-following-strathroy-incident-1.3025216#

"Aaron Driver came to the attention of London Muslim Mosque over a year ago after he moved from Winnipeg as part of his peace bond. Mosque officials immediately informed the police of his presence and kept the authorities apprised of their engagement efforts.

The London Muslim community prioritizes the safety of all Canadians and efforts were made to engage Aaron with the hope that the warmth of community involvement and engagement might change his perspective. At all times, the police were updated about these efforts, in addition to their own monitoring. While he had wrong views about the world, at no time did any officials with the Mosque know or suspect that Aaron was translating those views into any kind of attack. He did not display any outward signs of aggression.

The Mosque knew of his views, and chose not to turn a blind eye to the problem of violent extremism. We engaged him with the hope of changing his views on Islam and to show him the true, peaceful nature of our religion. We constantly monitored his activities within the Mosque and did our best to keep the authorities engaged with our activities."

Here's the mosque's full statement (also attached - FB version here):

In light of (Wednesday's) events in Strathroy, involving an individual who was previously known to authorities, London's Muslim community expresses its appreciation to law enforcement officials for keeping our community safe.

Aaron Driver came to the attention of London Muslim Mosque over a year ago after he moved from Winnipeg as part of his peace bond. Mosque officials immediately informed the police of his presence and kept the authorities apprised of their engagement efforts.

The London Muslim community prioritizes the safety of all Canadians and efforts were made to engage Aaron with the hope that the warmth of community involvement and engagement might change his perspective. At all times, the police were updated about these efforts, in addition to their own monitoring. While he had wrong views about the world, at no time did any officials with the Mosque know or suspect that Aaron was translating those views into any kind of attack. He did not display any outward signs of aggression.

The Mosque knew of his views, and chose not to turn a blind eye to the problem of violent extremism. We engaged him with the hope of changing his views on Islam and to show him the true, peaceful nature of our religion. We constantly monitored his activities within the Mosque and did our best to keep the authorities engaged with our activities.

The London Muslim Mosque, and the London Muslim community reiterate that Islamic teachings forbid violent acts against innocent people or interfering with the sanctity of life. "With the strongest of language, as a community, we condemn any form of extremist or radical behaviour as being contrary to the teachings of Islam," states Nawaz Tahir, spokesperson for London Muslim Mosque. "Such behaviour has no place in our community, and cannot be tolerated," he added. The Mosque looks forward to further working with authorities and the community to develop new mechanisms to counter violent extremism.

Earlier today, London Mayor Matt Brown reached out to Muslim leaders to reaffirm his commitment to working with the mosque in combatting Islamophobia. “I’ve worked with the London Mosque for many years and strongly believe that at times like this we need to stand together. I applaud the mosque for working with our police partners to keep our community safe.”

At least 30,000 Muslims make London their home - working and contributing to the greater London community. The safety and security of the community that we live in and the community that our children live in is of paramount importance.

London Muslim Mosque was the first mosque built in Ontario in 1964 and serves over 30,000 Muslims in the London and surrounding area.

 

[Edward Campbell]

Remember that CSE and CSIS are specifically mandated NOT to spy on Canadians.  That would be the likely reason the FBI passed on info to the RCMP that NSA or CIA had likely in turn have passed on to them.  The Americans likely have deployed a vastly larger effort towards cyber security and intelligence gathering than we have and likely are much quicker to find and explore sites and addresses frequently posting security threats.  It is a loophole that we can legally use in cases like this -- We did not spy on a Canadian; the Americans did and they informed us of a "Threat".

All the makings of a Tom Clancy novel.

It's just a tiny bit more complicated than that. This, from CSE, explains how that agency balances its SIGINT mission with legal and privacy issues.

Also everyone should remember, when speculating about e.g. CSE, that ...

             

 

[jollyjacktar]

No problem.  My former background gave me enough exposure to the fringes of events to now know that there is always a lot more to what is going on than what we hear about.  In fact much more is happening that we will never hear about.  As well the necessity to know and execute the formulation of questions, delegation of tasks, and gathering info as part of the job to decipher what various COAs could be.

Without question.  I too have seen the inside of the machine while in operation and there are many, many gears spinning that are not visible on the outside.  My points were more along the lines, of the similarities to other events in Europe such as people saying something and it being missed by the police, for whatever reason.  Electronic monitoring of shitheads like Driver being relaxed, allowing them to start their ops.  Albeit a lucky break with a tip from another outCan agency and swift action here at home, we didn't feel the nibble on the hook and line at first.  I'm not dissing all the hard work and effort that went into stopping him cold and I salute them all.

I'm just a little concerned that some small things are slipping though the cracks (especially taking off the electronic gear from watch list class people).  You know the old adage, for the want of a nail, a horseshoe was lost...  and we have to be lucky all of the time, dickheads like Driver only need one time.  Luck tends to run out after a time.

 

[George Wallace]

There's a difference between spying on, and passing open source intelligence on to Canadian authorities. The FBI likely saw the video, analyzed it to determine person was likely Canadian, and immediately handed off.

At the same time, the necessity of having a Warrant by the LEOs to conduct many of their duties in investigations can hamstring their efforts.  Open Source can only provide so much information.  Even with the passage of/notification of his video by the FBI, the RCMP had to deploy large number of resources to identify the subject and location.  That they were successful in tracking him is quite a feat.

 

[a_majoor]

I will have to disagree with you on the warrant thing, George. What makes liberal democracies like Canada different from places like Turkey, Russia or Venezuela is the "Rule of Law" and the requirement to show cause before taking actions against citizens.

Allowing arbitrary State power to decide who is a "threat" and to unilaterally take action is the fast road to dictatorship, and can be very easily be manipulated to deploy State power against people for political ends. The unsavoury attempts to quash "due process" in American Colleges and universities through Title IX Kangaroo courts for victims of sexual assault, or our own experience in Canada with Human Rights Tribunals should be unsettling enough. If you think that *we* are in no danger, stop and re read this site. Many of the opinions expressed by many of the posters (and yes, including myself) could be potentially marked as "hateful" or "xxxphobic" or whatever weasel word is in vogue, and then you or I could get sucked into a process which would at the very least cause massive financial hardship, hurt our chances at employment and affect our ability to communicate in public. I for one am not willing to see civil liberties eroded to that extent even in the face of terrorism.

And I say this as a father who potentially could have lost his son at Citi Plaza on the 10th. I want to live as a free man, and also that my children will live as free citizens in a liberal democratic society. I didn't spend my adult life as a soldier guarding these liberties just to casually give them away.

 

[jollyjacktar]

Fair enough, but when a valid threat is identified (such as this scumbag) and said threats are proven in a court of law, then society should be adequately protected.  The courts are too lenient on these people once convicted.  Stop being such panty waists and do what is necessary.